Trail braking, or braking in corners.

[The Spin Doctor]

Righto. I’m going to try to return the thread to whence it came.

Fine by me.

[Horse]

One of the little phrases I picked up on a rider training course (at the Nurburgring, run by coppers!) was "comfort braking". Something a LOT of us do, a LOT of the time (especially on a big fast open track). Just touch the brake for reassurance, right in the middle of a fast straight!

Just as well I'm on ignore for never posting anything useful

(Albeit in Trinity's car thread)

One thing that has been suggested as a biking 'must' is trail braking. There's a thread here somewhere (my interpretation: a deliberate, planned, action, not to be confused with braking in bends as a necessity or 'comfort' braking).

You don't often see it of course unless you're on a track day

'Comfort' braking is common with on-road riders during cornering, usually around turn-in, for several reasons, including assessment of speed, confidence in leaning, lack of steering ability and use of the throttle.

[Dodgy69]

Shropshires rural roads don't support the art of trail braking.

[mboy]

Shropshires rural roads don't support the art of trail braking.

A very good point, and one not yet touched upon as to why generally, trail braking is not taught to road riders, and is frowned upon generally by Advanced Training providers.

I started riding on sports bikes 20+yrs ago. Trail braking works… You wanna go faster, then you need to be either on the gas or on the brakes at all times. Coasting is the enemy of a fast lap time. But to make trail braking work, you need to practice and practice being smooth with it, because as has been pointed out previously, your tyres only have a limited amount of grip, and if you’re asking too much braking grip when the tyre is already needing a lot of cornering grip, you’re gonna chuck it down the road I’m afraid… This is what causes low sides. And this is why the fastest rider of our generation, a certain Marc Marquez, bins so many bikes especially in testing… He’s not afraid to find the limit of the bike when trail braking, and then dial back a bit, where most riders don’t want to find out where the limit is at all ideally.

So as someone who had become au fait with the practice of trail braking (although staying WELL within the limits of what was possible), I was surprised to learn, given how effective it is, just how much it is frowned upon when I signed up to do my IAM advanced training… But then you start to realise that the less predictable the road surface, the more grip you need to keep in reserve, and that on the road planning ahead and reading the road conditions trumps fast track riding techniques certainly in terms of safety, and more often than not in terms of “making progress” too.

These days on the road, I rarely trail brake. Even though I’m quite happy doing it, its both rare that I’m on a road surface that really supports it, or on a bike that particularly supports it. That said… My Gasgas SM700 Supermoto kinda needs it if you want to hustle the bike. With its long travel suspension, grippy tyres and low weight, it rewards quite an active riding style and punishes an inactive one. You can’t rely on the bikes weight to provide front end grip in a corner, so you’re moving your body about a bit more and/or more typically, loading the front suspension on the brakes going into the corners and trailing the brake off to the apex more than on a bike with shorter suspension travel. Fortunately the longer travel of the Supermoto tends to mean there’s a bit more grip in reserve over the broken British B roads than there would be on a sports bike with much less suspension, and given its low weight and long wheelbase, it’s a little easier to save once either end does start to slide…

But this just reinforces precisely why it is frowned upon by training providers, as they advocate that your tyres shouldn’t be sliding at any point to be in control on the road. Hence my assertion that what is quickest on the track, and what works on the road, aren’t always the same thing. The ability to trail brake is a very useful one, but not one I suggest people rush out to practice unless they’re already totally confident on a bike that is moving about underneath them. And its certainly best practiced on a track, with a smooth and consistent surface! On the road, more important than the ability to trail brake is the knowledge of where and when you can (and should) use it, and where not to…

[mboy]

One of the little phrases I picked up on a rider training course (at the Nurburgring, run by coppers!) was "comfort braking". Something a LOT of us do, a LOT of the time (especially on a big fast open track). Just touch the brake for reassurance, right in the middle of a fast straight!

Just as well I'm on ignore for never posting anything useful

(Albeit in Trinity's car thread)

One thing that has been suggested as a biking 'must' is trail braking. There's a thread here somewhere (my interpretation: a deliberate, planned, action, not to be confused with braking in bends as a necessity or 'comfort' braking).

You don't often see it of course unless you're on a track day

'Comfort' braking is common with on-road riders during cornering, usually around turn-in, for several reasons, including assessment of speed, confidence in leaning, lack of steering ability and use of the throttle.

I know I’m having a bad day on the bike when I find myself comfort braking rather than trail braking, or not braking at all into and round the bends on the road… It happens! Knowing that you’re doing it is the first step to improving the situation though, not kidding yourself that you were actually trail braking.

[Horse]

the knowledge of where and when you can (and should) use it, and where not to…

That

[Whysub]

I seem to have done it, like Mr Cheese, from when I used to race mates on pushbike.

I have no idea, nor care, about the physics concerned, nor those that are concerned with countersteering, they just get done instinctively.

As for comfort braking, one of my police instructors said there is no such thing. "If you feel the need to lose 2 mph, you brake. Consciously trying not to brake is more of an issue".

[Whysub]

All police instructors that train riders and drivers are better than their students....

[slowhare]

Wait, use the rear brake you say

Yeah...?

Weird man, weird.

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

[Horse]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said ... it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they?

So actually a reasonable statement. If you're going to ride like that, accept that you'll need appropriate skillz. If you don't have them, ride accordingly.

Edit: the flaw there being 'how does someone either recognise the need or appreciate that there might be a benefit? Buggrd if I know

[slowhare]

As Neevsie pointed out there’s a huge difference between a track where you can see round/through every corner and the road, where you can’t anticipate what’s coming the other way, or what condition the surface is.

I’m guilty of doing it in the past, but it’s not something i do these days.

I brought this up because there was a lot of chatter from YouTube contributors who were advocating it to all, including neubies, as the ultimate braking technique. If you told them it was irresponsible, as i did, you’d get a severe beating. But then, originally, i’d confused this with ‘backing it in’… which really would be irresponsible, esp for neubies.

[The Spin Doctor]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

But it's a very useful on-the-road technique if you need to get out of trouble because you misjudged a corner. You don't have to be hooning to do that. As I've said before - treat it as an emergency technique like hard straight line braking, or swerving.

[slowhare]

Well, i can’t see that, because you’d have to be using it already entering the corner, and why would you be doing it at speed anyway when you can’t anticipate what’s around that corner, or what the road surface is like. I don’t wish to get caught up in the semantics, but there’s no point doing it if you aren’t carrying much speed, and if you’ve messed up it rather infers you’ve misjudged your entry to start with.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's one of the really big advantages of ABS to be fair - the fact you can brake and turn hard at the same time. You can think of ABS as something a bit like automatic trail braking (and also a little bit like automatic cadence braking), if you're already braking hard and you start steering the system will automatically taper off the brakes to compensate.

[Horse]

It's one of the really big advantages of ABS to be fair - the fact you can brake and turn hard at the same time. You can think of ABS as something a bit like automatic trail braking (and also a little bit like automatic cadence braking), if you're already braking hard and you start steering the system will automatically taper off the brakes to compensate.

NoNoNo NOOOOOOO!

ONLY on bikes with ABS that is designed specifically for cornering. Try braking firmly on bikes with ordinary ABS and you'll likely end in the undergrowth.

Even then, it will need - as you say - awareness and management of how braking is affecting steering requirements.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah even after I typed that I realised I probably should have used the word "should" not "will"

It also matters which order you do it in of course - Brake->Turn or Turn->Brake....if you're already cornering hard and you grab the anchors s'not like the ABS can magic up more grip.

[Horse]

We had a customer at the shop who borrowed a BMW K1 demo bike.

Knew it had ABS, so stomped the brakes mid-bend.

Big repair bill.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It does (should ) work the other way around though, if you're doing an e-stop and you begin turning the brakes are meant to let off.

It works much better in a car to be fair, but in a car it's much easier to tell when the driver is turning!

[Horse]

It does (should ) work the other way around though, if you're doing an e-stop and you begin turning the brakes are meant to let off.

It works much better in a car to be fair, but in a car it's much easier to tell when the driver is turning!

To be honest, I don't know the intricacies of how cornering ABS operates.

Guessing, it must detect whether the bike is standing up or falling in, either being in an uncontrolled manner (by the rider) and - very quickly - adapt braking pressure to save the situation. Not just whether the wheels have reached the threshold of losing grip.

[The Spin Doctor]

Well, i can’t see that, because you’d have to be using it already entering the corner, and why would you be doing it at speed anyway when you can’t anticipate what’s around that corner, or what the road surface is like. I don’t wish to get caught up in the semantics, but there’s no point doing it if you aren’t carrying much speed, and if you’ve messed up it rather infers you’ve misjudged your entry to start with.

Firstly, there are two ways of braking when leaned over:

1) you carry brakes from the straight into the bend tapering off the brakes as you add lean (generally called trail braking)
2) you carry speed into the bend, discover part-way through the corner that you need to slow down so you brake gently and gradually add more brakes as the lean angle reduces.

The generally accepted rule is that you set your speed so that you can stop before you reach the furthest point you can see. So if you see an obstruction as you enter the bend, you're going to have to slow or even stop... and you're almost certainly going to have to perform some of the braking leaning over.

As to WHY you might need to use either technique, it's because you need to slow down as you enter or negotiate a corner. You probably do the latter as a matter of course every single time you come up to a roundabout on a fast road. And since most corners in the UK are blind, you can't always see problems like stopped vehicles that are part way round a corner early enough to slow down on the straight preceding the bend. Or a bend may tighten up out of sight.

What I'm talking about is NOT a 'performance riding' technique (though it can be used that way, and there's an unfortunate tendency for articles in the bike press and online to treat it as such) - as I said, it's a valuable get-you-out-of-trouble technique.