Trail braking, or braking in corners.

[slowhare]

Wait, use the rear brake you say

Yeah...?

Weird man, weird.

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

[Horse]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said ... it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they?

So actually a reasonable statement. If you're going to ride like that, accept that you'll need appropriate skillz. If you don't have them, ride accordingly.

Edit: the flaw there being 'how does someone either recognise the need or appreciate that there might be a benefit? Buggrd if I know

[slowhare]

As Neevsie pointed out there’s a huge difference between a track where you can see round/through every corner and the road, where you can’t anticipate what’s coming the other way, or what condition the surface is.

I’m guilty of doing it in the past, but it’s not something i do these days.

I brought this up because there was a lot of chatter from YouTube contributors who were advocating it to all, including neubies, as the ultimate braking technique. If you told them it was irresponsible, as i did, you’d get a severe beating. But then, originally, i’d confused this with ‘backing it in’… which really would be irresponsible, esp for neubies.

[The Spin Doctor]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

But it's a very useful on-the-road technique if you need to get out of trouble because you misjudged a corner. You don't have to be hooning to do that. As I've said before - treat it as an emergency technique like hard straight line braking, or swerving.

[slowhare]

Well, i can’t see that, because you’d have to be using it already entering the corner, and why would you be doing it at speed anyway when you can’t anticipate what’s around that corner, or what the road surface is like. I don’t wish to get caught up in the semantics, but there’s no point doing it if you aren’t carrying much speed, and if you’ve messed up it rather infers you’ve misjudged your entry to start with.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's one of the really big advantages of ABS to be fair - the fact you can brake and turn hard at the same time. You can think of ABS as something a bit like automatic trail braking (and also a little bit like automatic cadence braking), if you're already braking hard and you start steering the system will automatically taper off the brakes to compensate.

[Horse]

It's one of the really big advantages of ABS to be fair - the fact you can brake and turn hard at the same time. You can think of ABS as something a bit like automatic trail braking (and also a little bit like automatic cadence braking), if you're already braking hard and you start steering the system will automatically taper off the brakes to compensate.

NoNoNo NOOOOOOO!

ONLY on bikes with ABS that is designed specifically for cornering. Try braking firmly on bikes with ordinary ABS and you'll likely end in the undergrowth.

Even then, it will need - as you say - awareness and management of how braking is affecting steering requirements.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah even after I typed that I realised I probably should have used the word "should" not "will"

It also matters which order you do it in of course - Brake->Turn or Turn->Brake....if you're already cornering hard and you grab the anchors s'not like the ABS can magic up more grip.

[Horse]

We had a customer at the shop who borrowed a BMW K1 demo bike.

Knew it had ABS, so stomped the brakes mid-bend.

Big repair bill.

[Mr. Dazzle]

It does (should ) work the other way around though, if you're doing an e-stop and you begin turning the brakes are meant to let off.

It works much better in a car to be fair, but in a car it's much easier to tell when the driver is turning!

[Horse]

It does (should ) work the other way around though, if you're doing an e-stop and you begin turning the brakes are meant to let off.

It works much better in a car to be fair, but in a car it's much easier to tell when the driver is turning!

To be honest, I don't know the intricacies of how cornering ABS operates.

Guessing, it must detect whether the bike is standing up or falling in, either being in an uncontrolled manner (by the rider) and - very quickly - adapt braking pressure to save the situation. Not just whether the wheels have reached the threshold of losing grip.

[The Spin Doctor]

Well, i can’t see that, because you’d have to be using it already entering the corner, and why would you be doing it at speed anyway when you can’t anticipate what’s around that corner, or what the road surface is like. I don’t wish to get caught up in the semantics, but there’s no point doing it if you aren’t carrying much speed, and if you’ve messed up it rather infers you’ve misjudged your entry to start with.

Firstly, there are two ways of braking when leaned over:

1) you carry brakes from the straight into the bend tapering off the brakes as you add lean (generally called trail braking)
2) you carry speed into the bend, discover part-way through the corner that you need to slow down so you brake gently and gradually add more brakes as the lean angle reduces.

The generally accepted rule is that you set your speed so that you can stop before you reach the furthest point you can see. So if you see an obstruction as you enter the bend, you're going to have to slow or even stop... and you're almost certainly going to have to perform some of the braking leaning over.

As to WHY you might need to use either technique, it's because you need to slow down as you enter or negotiate a corner. You probably do the latter as a matter of course every single time you come up to a roundabout on a fast road. And since most corners in the UK are blind, you can't always see problems like stopped vehicles that are part way round a corner early enough to slow down on the straight preceding the bend. Or a bend may tighten up out of sight.

What I'm talking about is NOT a 'performance riding' technique (though it can be used that way, and there's an unfortunate tendency for articles in the bike press and online to treat it as such) - as I said, it's a valuable get-you-out-of-trouble technique.

[The Spin Doctor]

Yeah even after I typed that I realised I probably should have used the word "should" not "will"

The trouble is, every little slip of the tyre that happens as the ABS releases will follow the course of momentum. And momentum ALWAYS goes straight on unless a force deflects it.

It also matters which order you do it in of course - Brake->Turn or Turn->Brake....if you're already cornering hard and you grab the anchors s'not like the ABS can magic up more grip.

Which is another reason going into bends with something in hand is a good idea... you may be able to steer upright THEN hit the brakes hard.

[Screwdriver]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

Got a link to that article?

Remember it's not just high speed that use of the rear brake can control, try doing some feet up U turns. Plus of course speed is relative. "High speed" filtering might be 10 or 20 mph. You don't want to be hitting anything solid even at that speed and I will use all the brakes I've got, not just for stopping either but also for "slow speed" manoeuvring.

[Horse]

Neevsie from MCN fame just covered this and said he also uses a touch of rear (to settle the suspension). He also added it isn’t really a road trick as you’d have to be hooning it for it to be of any benefit, which would be illegal under current speed restrictions, and nobody here hoons on the road, do they? I don’t, my hooning days are now well behind me.

Got a link to that article?

Remember it's not just high speed that use of the rear brake can control, try doing some feet up U turns.

Covered in the latest FortNine video (and umpteen Joe Paladino vids before)

[Horse]

The generally accepted rule is that you set your speed so that you can stop before you reach the furthest point you can see.

Guaranteed to cause a kerfuffle in 'advanced' circles is 'stop within the distance you can see is clear [1] on your side of the road [2] and expect to remain so[3]'

3 is the 'surprise horizon', the nearest point where something can potentially emerge to get you.

Edit to add some pics, views from either end of a corner

Working back from the furthest:
4. Pile of cones is the traditional 'where the verges meet' limit point
3. Cone on centre line is maximum braking distance within 'your' lane
2. The 'surprise horizon', nearside verge
1. Cone closer on centre line is 'view' riding position





And the view from around the corner, looking back, shows the 'invisible' junction where someone could emerge into your stopping distance ('3').

[The Spin Doctor]

Excellent sequence of photos, and explains why even someone not hooning NEEDS to know how to brake mid-corner.

[Horse]

Excellent sequence of photos, and explains why even someone not hooning NEEDS to know how to brake mid-corner.

A couple more.

Bright red = limit point (far side intersects with nearside hedge)

Orange = distance you can see to be clear on your side (i.e. theoretical maximum stopping distance)

Yellow = surprise horizon

Dark red = where something emerging from hidden might obstruct you (ie actual maximum stopping distance)



Umpteen opportunities to be surprised before you reach the furthest distance you can see to be clear on your side.

20230801_151617.jpg (13.33 KiB) Viewed 558 times

[Deadpool2]

You would hope that before that corner there was a sign, stating there was a junction just around the bend

[Mr. Dazzle]

It's why the white lines are longer I'm assuming?

Long white lines/short gaps is meant to indicate a (non specific?) Hazard.

I'm guessing they're like Chevron signs though, in that the rules about applying them are ill defined?