Trail braking, or braking in corners.

[slowhare]

Hello,

I couldn’t find anything online so i thought i’d try here as you all appear very knowledgeable.

I’m having some disagreement on the chat threads on YT regarding trail braking. I understand it’s a track technique and had assumed it was used to enable the rider to get on the power earlier, but am told this is incorrect, and that it’s intention is to load the rear suspension and increase stability (while unloading the front wheel). I have a problem with the ‘unloading the front wheel’ part in that argument. Also, i was always taught to never brake in corners: that it is essential to get your entry speed correct in the first place & accelerate through a corner (the acceleration would then load the rear suspension without unloading the front).

If this advice were given to new riders wouldn’t there be a huge risk of having a high side? Isn’t it just unnecessary on the road where track antics play little or no part? You would also get unnecessary wear on components… I just don’t get it & feel the advice is potentially dangerous & irresponsible, but what do you guys make of it. From what i see online it’s becoming a growing trend yet on all the videos i see of bikes whizzing around the Nurburgring i can’t find any where the tail lights flash up through corners.

Please advise. Yours, an aging hare.

[Yorick]

I used it on track 30 years, but if learned properly, it will allow to brake a little bit later on the road. Usually in unplanned situations.

Don't listen to the Internet experts who will try to bore you to death.

Just practice it, bit by bit until it feels safe. Then in an emergency it will feel natural.

[slowhare]

OK, but why would i need to?

I still don’t get it: apart from braking later, are there any benefits (and why would braking later be a benefit).

Thank you in advance.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I've been riding motorcycles since 1983 and I just had to look up what trail braking is, turns out it's just braking into a corner and continuing to brake whilst leaning and letting the brakes off gradually, something I learnt to do by myself, and quite possibly on bicycles before I was riding motorcycles.

As Yorick has said, practice it using gentle braking while leaning, if you've got access to a dirt bike practice it off road, everything happens a bit slower and gentler on dirt when it comes to tyres sliding, some bikes are better for it than others, maybe it's just because it's what I learnt to do it on, but I think drum braked 125 motor cross bikes are ideal to learn on, nice and light and loads of feel.

[Horse]

I used it on track 30 years, but if learned properly, it will allow to brake a little bit later on the road. Usually in unplanned situations.

Don't listen to the Internet experts who will try to bore you to death.

Just practice it, bit by bit until it feels safe. Then in an emergency it will feel natural.

Jeez, Yozzer, are you getting sensible? That's pretty much what I was going to say!

... But, of course, I'll add a bit You'd be disappointedif Ididn't

1. If you want to go faster - track or road - using trail braking means that (assuming your mid-bend speed has to be the same) that you carry some speed into the bend.

2. Understand that tyres have finite grip. If you're using some for braking, you can't use that 'bit' for leaning. And, on-road you won't know how much grip the surface has until you're there. [Obviously not an issue on tracks]

3. Having the brakes trailed into the corner means that you've reduced reaction time if you have to brake mid-bend. Ideally this would only be on a blind bend, if there's view then there is less likelihood of needing to brake anyway.

4. Now read 3 in the context of 1 - do you really want to be travelling faster into a blind bend?

PS Trail braking is different to using the brakes because you've misjudged the corner, it should be a planned action. Also, it's not when you have to brake mid-bend.

There is a thread on here, somewhere. There's also an 'ask the trainer' on Rapid's website.

PPS When Yorick says 'practice', that's fine - but be clear about *what* you're practicing.

[Horse]

OK, but why would i need to?

I was taught old-school police-style, 40+ years ago. Back then *any* braking in bends was frowned upon

You'll rarely, if ever need to trail brake on road. However, see my earlier post, does that answer your questions?

Ignore the YouTube hype about "you must".

[Horse]

Here you are:

http://revtothelimit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=114033

[Dickyboy]

As Yorick has said, practice it using gentle braking while leaning, if you've got access to a dirt bike practice it off road, everything happens a bit slower and gentler on dirt when it comes to tyres sliding, some bikes are better for it than others, maybe it's just because it's what I learnt to do it on, but I think drum braked 125 motor cross bikes are ideal to learn on, nice and light and loads of feel.

If I were writing the rules, I'd make sure off-road was part of everyone's training, I don't claim to be a great rider but I'm pretty sure my limited off road experience when I first started out has saved me a few times. Oh and riding round a damp field on a little trail bike is great fun too.

[Horse]

If I were writing the rules, I'd make sure off-road on bald tyres was part of everyone's training

Added a bit

Like most road-only riders, at the merest hint of a slip (let alone slide) from the tyres, I would descend into tense/pucker.

Just learning to accept that, if you keep looking where you want to go and keeping some power on, by and large the bike will sort itself out.

Panic/tense/close throttle/brake is a common reaction. But even at 30mph you're 15-20 metres further along before any reaction happens.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

If I were writing the rules, I'd make sure off-road on bald tyres was part of everyone's training

Added a bit

Like most road-only riders, at the merest hint of a slip (let alone slide) from the tyres, I would descend into tense/pucker.

Just learning to accept that, if you keep looking where you want to go and keeping some power on, by and large the bike will sort itself out.

Panic/tense/close throttle/brake is a common reaction. But even at 30mph you're 15-20 metres further along before any reaction happens.

Bald tyres are evil off road, you'll be suggesting riding on wet grass next.

[Horse]

If I were writing the rules, I'd make sure off-road on bald tyres was part of everyone's training

Added a bit

Bald tyres are evil off road, you'll be suggesting riding on wet grass next.

Actually, I was thinking as part of limited training, rather than regular off-roading.

FWIW the Dutch KNMV instructors train riders to use ABS by getting up to speed on tarmac then off onto grass for braking

[Dickyboy]

Bald tyres on wet grass, might as well just give up - learn to ice skate

[Yorick]

Wet ? Grass?

[Cousin Jack]

If I were writing the rules, I'd make sure off-road was part of everyone's training, I don't claim to be a great rider but I'm pretty sure my limited off road experience when I first started out has saved me a few times. Oh and riding round a damp field on a little trail bike is great fun too.

I would agree, mainly because I have pretty well zero off road experience, and a whiff of loose gravel terrifies me. I am sure the bike would be fine, but the pilot is not.

[Horse]

a whiff of loose gravel terrifies me. I am sure the bike would be fine, but the pilot is not.

Earlier I said KNMV send riders onto grass.

Looks like they've upgraded



https://www.frankvangerwen.nl/abs-stress/

IIRC, https://i2imca.com/ get riders cornering through gravel.

[slowhare]

Thanks for taking the effort to reply.

I’m with you in that braking in corners wasn’t considered clever, or was frowned upon. It was all about being in the correct gear, making a good entry, and powering through, so i was always led to believe.

but what i glean from this is: it’s an acceptable road technique for navigating hazardous (blind) bends as you’re already prepared. I see the logic in that, but what about the downside — unloading the front wheel? In less than perfect weather conditions and dubious road surfaces this could end badly. I’m not seeing any real advantages except for the blind bend proactivity where you rightly point out one wouldn’t be using speed anyway, but covering both brakes is also effective.

Are new entrants actively taught trail braking? i’m still left feeling it could end in disaster. Happy to change my POV on this subject provided there are valid reasons for doing it, but i remain unconvinced.

Incidentally, Yorick, what are the reasons for doing it on a track? I’m not seeing ppl braking around corners at the GPs, rather the best riders power it round, even swinging the rear speedway style… braking here could potentially cause a highside which is never pleasant.

[slowhare]

Incidentally, Yorick, what are the reasons for doing it on a track? I’m not seeing ppl braking around corners at the GPs, rather the best riders power it round, even swinging the rear speedway style… braking here could potentially cause a highside which is never pleasant.

Carrying more speed into corners. Got it.
So it doesn’t allow you to get on it sooner?

[Horse]

Incidentally, Yorick, what are the reasons for doing it on a track? I’m not seeing ppl braking around corners at the GPs, rather the best riders power it round, even swinging the rear speedway style… braking here could potentially cause a highside which is never pleasant.

Carrying more speed into corners. Got it.
So it doesn’t allow you to get on it sooner?

Brake to the apex, drive out.

High-level racing has a very different style, think a 'rounded V' braking to turning point and driving out, rather than a smoother, classic, 'entry-apex-exit' curve.

20230629_181244.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 1014 times

[Horse]

it’s an acceptable road technique for navigating hazardous (blind) bends as you’re already prepared.

Or you could go in slightly slower, with the expectation of needing to brake.

I see the logic in that, but what about the downside — unloading the front wheel? In less than perfect weather conditions and dubious road surfaces this could end badly.

As it's braking, the weight will be more to the front, so loading the front. That could mean more grip? But, at the same time, you're asking more of the grip available.

Are new entrants actively taught trail braking?

I doubt it.

@Bigyin to clarify

i’m still left feeling it could end in disaster.

Yup.

[Yorick]

Incidentally, Yorick, what are the reasons for doing it on a track? I’m not seeing ppl braking around corners at the GPs, rather the best riders power it round, even swinging the rear speedway style… braking here could potentially cause a highside which is never pleasant.

Carrying more speed into corners. Got it.
So it doesn’t allow you to get on it sooner?

Apart from letting start braking later, it also dips the forks and keeps them down later, increasing the rake angle so it steers quicker.

I'd you let off the brakes early, the forks return to normal level decreasing steering angle