How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[The Spin Doctor]

Google Earth never works for me.

Don't fret, I struggle with the real world.

I'm going to be a PITA... got a googlemaps reference?

[Hairybiker84]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.262867,-1.2634737,17z
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/oa ... 857502,18z

They are the 2 roads, not sure where on them the photos refer to, street view I guess?

[Horse]

20210702_132415.jpg

The second was on a test route. Within half a mile the rider goes from motorway to single lane and high hedges.

That was the roads to the pub I went to last night, but with added gravel down the middle.

Ah. 'Rural dual carriageway'?

Glad you were going to the pub, they're not the sort of roads to be on when you're sober.

[Supermofo]

20210702_132415.jpg

The second was on a test route. Within half a mile the rider goes from motorway to single lane and high hedges.

That was the roads to the pub I went to last night, but with added gravel down the middle.

Ah. 'Rural dual carriageway'?

Glad you were going to the pub, they're not the sort of roads to be on when you're sober.

Hence the bottle




The more interesting part seems to have been to difficult for the google car, but this gives a flavour
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.90154 ... 6656?hl=en

[Supermofo]

20210702_132415.jpg

The second was on a test route. Within half a mile the rider goes from motorway to single lane and high hedges.

That was the roads to the pub I went to last night, but with added gravel down the middle.

You went to my local ? You should have come say hello

You've moved to Hall Green Cool we'll be able to meet up to swap bikes more

[Hairybiker84]

Nasty, excellent! Guess that's not the crab Cromer

[Horse]

I quite like that Ghostship 0.5 stuff.

Sometimes drink it out of choice ...

[Supermofo]

I quite like that Ghostship 0.5 stuff.

Sometimes drink it out of choice ...

First time I had it, it was definitely missing something. But wasn't terrible. It is nice having a choice of low alcohol drinks for when you're driving though

[Supermofo]

Nasty, excellent! Guess that's not the crab Cromer

The Rising Sun Halls Green. Only round the corner from Stevenage really which is a hovel but get 5 miles away and the whole area between the A1, A505, A10 and A602 is a rabbit warren of tiny nadgery tracks and middle of nowhere hamlets. It's about 12 miles north of me but the Sat Nav made it 17 miles of wilderness hooning

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Not far from the Old Bourne, one of the most evil little trails in South East England, when it's wet, in the dry it 's just a hill and a river bed.

[Yorick]

Tbh I did try to get instruction on a Trackday, I told them I only wanted to get my knee down and they told me to piss off in some weird norvern accent

I remember you. The lad who bought my old knee sliders

[The Spin Doctor]

The more interesting part seems to have been to difficult for the google car, but this gives a flavour
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.90154 ... 6656?hl=en

Is that actually drinkable? I say that from a position of liking Ghost Ship - one of my tipples of choice at the beer fest at Broadstairs folk week.

That road's a 3 to 4 on the Goat Road Scale. Don't tell me I've never explained the Goat Road Scale?

A One Goat road is a typical country lane which is narrow but allows two vehicles to pass without too much problem.

A Two Goat road doesn't have room for two vehicles to pass each other without on stopping at a wider passing place.

A Three Goat road has a surface with intermittent patches of sand, mud or gravel.

A Four Goat road has a continuous strip of mud, gravel or even grass growing down the middle, making it difficult to switch from one tyre track to the other.

And finally a Five Goat road is one where any hint of the original surface has long disappeared into potholes and been covered up by stones and mud! My favourite farm shop (mmm, guinea fowl...) is down a road like this. It's even tough in a car in the winter.

I always try to fit in something appropriately Goaty on a bends training session

[Horse]

The more interesting part seems to have been to difficult for the google car, but this gives a flavour
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.90154 ... 6656?hl=en

Is that actually drinkable? I say that from a position of liking Ghost Ship - one of my tipples of choice at the beer fest at Broadstairs folk week.

My favourite beer is Doombar. This stuff is more citrus, along IPA lines.

I'm not a fan of 'creosote' beers.

[Cousin Jack]

I think it depends enormously on your experience with interactions with IAM riders.

As I said earlier, I've seen some atrocious behaviour and attitudes from IAM riders, some genuinely dangerous and idiotic (arrogant and aggressive) riding and a genuine disbelief that they've done anything wrong when later questioned about it.

It really does. I have had bad experiences with the IAM, but I also know some IAM Observers who are good riders and nice people too.

IMO the IAM have an institutional problem that most charities have. Managing staff is much easier than managing volunteers! Herding cats is a doddle by comparison, but managing is still very necessary, and I don't think the IAM have done it too well.

[Bigyin]

That road's a 3 to 4 on the Goat Road Scale. Don't tell me I've never explained the Goat Road Scale?

A One Goat road is a typical country lane which is narrow but allows two vehicles to pass without too much problem.

A Two Goat road doesn't have room for two vehicles to pass each other without on stopping at a wider passing place.

A Three Goat road has a surface with intermittent patches of sand, mud or gravel.

A Four Goat road has a continuous strip of mud, gravel or even grass growing down the middle, making it difficult to switch from one tyre track to the other.

And finally a Five Goat road is one where any hint of the original surface has long disappeared into potholes and been covered up by stones and mud! My favourite farm shop (mmm, guinea fowl...) is down a road like this. It's even tough in a car in the winter.

I always try to fit in something appropriately Goaty on a bends training session

You would have loved Abels route selection in Norway as many of them were 4 to 5 on your goat scale ...... good ones were 2 to 3. Many hadnt seen much traffic in years apart from dirtbikes and snow mobiles. Quite a challenge on heavily loaded ADV bikes on road tyres

[Noggin]

I had a similar experience (from a learning point of view) - I showed my first riding buddy the CCS leaflet many many years ago and said I was considering it. After the next two morning rideouts, he pointed out that we'd covered the syllabus!!

The difference is that CSS break down the overall goal into smaller, bite-sized pieces which are easier to chew and swallow. For each chunk, they cover the topic first in theory, then offer the opportunity to practice that particular technique in a controlled environment, followed by feedback on how you performed and what needs to be changed, then you get the chance to apply that correction, before moving onto the next topic. It's a way to structure coaching that aids the learning process immensely.

I use the same structured approach but without a handy track, I use the road, choosing the routes to set different challenges.

Your buddy may - or may not - have done the same. I don't know. But my experience (directly when I myself was a novice, and indirectly through talking to trainees) is that most new riders who are shown the ropes by more experienced riders are simply told "follow me and do what I do". How do they know what the rider ahead is doing if he / she doesn't explain? I certainly didn't. How do you know who is riding well enough to follow? I remember one ride on my 125 following a much more experienced (well, he'd passed his test two years earlier) rider who was busy telling me I was too slow, and cleared off into the distance. I passed him a few minutes later pulling his Norton Dominator out of a hedge.

I was lucky, my friend is an excellent teacher. Observes and is then able to explain in a way you can understand. That last is the bit I often struggle with - I don't do technical, don't understand some descriptions of stuff. K was blooming brilliant (used to race at quite a high level once upon a time!) - he always seemed to find a way to explain things so I got it and then we went and tried again on a different bit of road! He seemed to have quite a few 'handy' roads that I wouldn't have thought would work, but each was perfect for the sort of riding he chose! Like I say - I have been very lucky with the people I learnt from/with

[Whysub]

I very much doubt that anyone I rode with, who didn't know what I did for a living, would know I was advanced trained. I never told anyone, but my colleagues and family knew. I never went balls out on rides as I valued my licence, and some magistrates love to throw the book at riders who they think should "know better".

And I appreciate riders that can wheelie for hundreds of yards (I can't) or someine that can ride with the rear wheel spinning and smoking at over 60 mph. That takes some control.

A lot of my job involved sitting around on my stationary bike for many hours, then having to ride when the target moved, often many hours later. So being able to "switch on" was vital without getting the red mist decending.

When I was instructing, I had the whole range of ability, but could be snipped to 3 groups.....

......The clever ones watched and listened. I did enjoy really pushing to almost racing speed

A group of friends and I do the British Superbike School "Introduction to Trackdays" day at Blyton Park. Each instructor has two or maybe three riders with them for the full day.

You can tell who listens and acts on what they were told before each session, and who were doing their own thing. Those that did came on leaps and bounds (including me). Last time I went it was for me a proper trackday, fast 1 to 1 instruction with an instructor for 3 of my 5 sessions.

Once a young woman turned up on her Ducati Moster. She had been riding for 3 years, but only commuted from her home to the office and back. This was all on a series of staights linked by left and right turns. Start of the day she was slow and looked scared stiff on the tight left hand bend by the pit entrance. By the end of the day she was hitting a perfect line through the bend, and at a fair pace ttoo.I bet she enjoyed riding further afield after that.

[Hot_Air]

While I began with track days, I bought into road riding instruction because I enjoyed it. Unlike the IAM, my instructors (Rapid Training, @The Spin Doctor, Blue Riband) were professional riders. The courses were all very different but fun. And I got more out of them than superbike school.

Also, the training’s added even more fun to my road riding (in the same way that circuit instruction helped me get more out of track days).

Incidentally, I know @The Spin Doctor mightn’t come across online as a party animal But his training was enjoyable and rewarding.

It's interesting, on track instruction is probably easier to sell than on road as it's seen as cool to go faster.

I agree and guess it’s the reason for the name Rapid Training. However, Rapid has the odd TT racer among its instructors (not your usual stereotype for an advanced riding instructor).

[Bigyin]

I very much doubt that anyone I rode with, who didn't know what I did for a living, would know I was advanced trained. I never told anyone, but my colleagues and family knew. I never went balls out on rides as I valued my licence, and some magistrates love to throw the book at riders who they think should "know better".

And I appreciate riders that can wheelie for hundreds of yards (I can't) or someine that can ride with the rear wheel spinning and smoking at over 60 mph. That takes some control.

A lot of my job involved sitting around on my stationary bike for many hours, then having to ride when the target moved, often many hours later. So being able to "switch on" was vital without getting the red mist decending.

I had a superb time in my surveillance career but you had the job i always wanted. I tried to get on a team with bikes a couple of times but due to a personality clash with someone who led that team i was blocked and told not to bother applying anymore which lasted for over 20 years. I would have only got that role if i left and transferred to a different force or organisation. Stupid really as i knew i could do a decent job and a one of the guys that got the ticket was a brand new license holder within the team (when advertised it required 3 years experience on a bike 600cc plus ) and i never ever found out why he had the issue with me as nobody would tell me apart from "He doesnt want you on the team" despite me working well with others from the same team

Ah well ..... life turned out ok but would have been fun to have had a go

[Potter]

"If you don't do my course then you'll probably have an accident" - "If you don't come to my seminar you probably won't get rich" - "If you don't do my management course you'll probably be a bad manager".

This is always the strategy of consultants that want to sell you something that usually isn't worth buying, there has to be an "if you don't..." - because they couldn't sell it otherwise and that's normally how you know it's dubious. If Marquez was selling individual coaching sessions he wouldn't be saying "if you don't...", he'd just be advertising it and it would sell itself, no persuasion needed.

Some people do actually need to be shown how to go around a corner at the proper speed, using the proper line and in a position that gives them the maximum view to look for hazards, I learned it under my own steam very quickly, as most do, but some still do need to be told, these are fairly few though and I think you'd struggle to make a proper living from it.

Helpfully, (for anyone thinking of doing it as a business) a significant portion of human beings are inquisitive and they'll pay money to see behind the curtain of mystery, self-help books are good sellers for this reason, some people think there are unknowns to unlock and this can be exploited. To do this though you'll need marketing, because nine tenths of what you're selling might not be useful to the average person and if you don't have any personal authenticity (like Marquez) then you'll need to convince people, so you'll need to build up a following, sell books, get air time, do videos, etc - basically you'll need to convince people that you have a product worth buying - a lazy way to do it is to say "if you don't..." - but beware the punter that knows this trick.

You also have a big plus on your side, if you take someone out doing their favourite hobby on roads that you know well and can make a good job of riding them, and it's a nice day, and they feel like they've had a good time, then they'll say they enjoyed it - in fact you'd have to be very disagreeable to get someone to walk away saying they didn't enjoy it or feel like they got something out of it - so you almost can't fail....but you have to convince them to turn up in the first place and that's where the marketing and psychology comes into it.

So in essence, if you can do the riding bit that's only the easy bit at the end, selling this service is where the skill lies and most are very bad at this, which is why a lot of punters need the heavy persuasion because they simply don't want to buy it.

I'm not being a knob, it's just the realities of selling this type of product.
Now then, who wants to pay me vast sums of money to teach them the mysterious secrets of how to be successful in business