How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[wheelnut]

While I agree with a chunk of your snake oil reasoning, some of it is misplaced. Marquez is a great rider, he may well be a shit riding coach. Luca Cadalero was Rossi’s riding coach. Do you think he’d be as good a rider as Rossi? Alex Ferguson didn’t set the world alight as a player but he was a pretty good manager/coach.

If the great MotoGP riders can do what they do naturally then why have they all got riding coaches? Why does Ronnie O’Sullivan have a playing coach?

In the business world, a lot of business owners have ‘mentors’, people who they can use to bounce ideas off, discuss strategies etc. I would bet that your boss has something similar in place.

Back to biking, it’s been said before that you start off with a big bag of luck and a small bag of experience. The trick is to fill the experience bag up before the luck bag runs out. If you can find a way to give that process a helping hand then why wouldn’t you?

Early in my biking journey I did a bikesafe day and, although I didn’t learn that much on that day, I knew I wanted to be able to hustle the bike down a country road with good risk management in the same way he did. It gave me an idea what sort of rider I wanted to be and a level of competence to aim for.

I understand why the police do it, but I’m not now a fan of the fairly rigid, riding by numbers approach. Over the years you absorb your techniques from different sources, the trick is to be able to identify which sources are valid and which aren’t. You put these together and develop your own style and always be open to picking new bits and pieces up. The law of diminishing returns applies though.

[Potter]

While I agree with a chunk of your snake oil reasoning, some of it is misplaced. Marquez is a great rider, he may well be a shit riding coach. Luca Cadalero was Rossi’s riding coach. Do you think he’d be as good a rider as Rossi? Alex Ferguson didn’t set the world alight as a player but he was a pretty good manager/coach.

If the great MotoGP riders can do what they do naturally then why have they all got riding coaches? Why does Ronnie O’Sullivan have a playing coach?

In the business world, a lot of business owners have ‘mentors’, people who they can use to bounce ideas off, discuss strategies etc. I would bet that your boss has something similar in place.

You're talking about something different and I never said there is no need for coaches/mentors, neither did I say jobs like football managers don't need to exist.

I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

[Dodgy69]

Is professional coaching sold to us to improve our road riding skills, road riding enjoyment or improve our risk assessment and safety awareness.

[wheelnut]

Is professional coaching sold to us to improve our road riding skills, road riding enjoyment or improve our risk assessment and safety awareness.

Does it have to be either/or?

[Hairybiker84]

I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

[wheelnut]

....so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I wouldn’t disagree with that but would argue that it applies to a lot of businesses in the tertiary sector.

Why would I need a financial advisor? I can fill in a tax return, why would I need an accountant, etc.?

[Potter]

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

To be honest you could be right, I always argue my points robustly but I always leave a gap to be wrong. I'm basing my opinions on growing up on bikes and riding them with other mates that did the same. I don't ride with anyone bad enough to need tuition, but perhaps the modern day motorcyclist needs this service.

I rarely see a motorcyclist that isn't capable of being safe and having fun, but some of the newer ones ride too fast for the road, although that's an ego thing, it's not a practical skills training thing.

[weeksy]

I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

If I didn't want to be alienated I wouldn't ride a motorbike that's so fast compared to the cars around it. The alienation comes from the performance and the fun of riding comes from that performance too.

[Horse]

I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

Simply? You sure that you didn't write Ronnie Corbett's 'chair' monologues?

I'll write something equally as long

This might surprise you, but I sort of agree.

A lot of what is sold as 'high standard advanced' riding is actually close to what a good 'L' course might cover. Particularly for extra 'advanced' driving techniques, much of it is irrelevant to the average driver.

Riders are different as there's far more of the hobby/enthusiast aspect. Many riders, though, don't have a secure grasp of basics and typical 'advanced' training isn't set up to help.

But if - and it's a big if - L courses were thorough and effective, we should have fewer riders crashing out of bends at (what the investigators say) manageable speeds. Riders still blithely ride into others' crashes (classic SMIDSY, the legendary U turning taxi, etc). That, unfortunately, implies that either or both of two things might be happening: training is insufficient or riders CBA to take notice of it (and that's not ignoring that 'people make mistakes' etc, because better training might overcome some of that).

Take your son's crash: was there anything about the build up to that situation that training could have covered? If he learned from the crash and thinks he won't repeat it, then that suggests it was something his training could have included. Or did it, he forgot, was full of the joys of new bike ownership, etc?

'But' No 2. Go back to my list of simple, fixable, things that everyday riders do (posted in reply to Couchie). However, when I was heavily involved in rider training it largely wasn't set up to train (to avoid) those areas, it then was either wobble for CBT and 'advanced'. There was a big hole for middle level skills. Mod1 may have improved that, although I was still training people on those techniques up to 2008.

I don't know how you get 'majority' (said for comic effect, or justifiable?), I said 'many' and I'm not going to put a % on it. Although if there's half a million active riders in the UK (I really don't know, that's a 'pluck a number'), then even a 'few' is a lot of people. FWIW, at one time, the Thames Valley IAM group had about 900-1000 members.

There's a further issue: if I as a trainer help you to ride faster on-road, what's a likely result? Helping people commit bikie-facilitated hari kiri is hardly a great advertising strategy. That's why there needs to be the 'caution' element to. If, instead, I help you identify places not to go [relatively] fast, then you can decide for yourself what to do elsewhere.

And that second type is actually the bit of 'advanced' training that makes the difference. Whether you want to call it hazard prediction, insight, situation awareness, doesn't matter. If you want to get home in a fit state for you and your bike to go out again the next day, that's probably an important aspect to work on. I appreciate that's perilously close to your 'take training or die' type training advertising statements, the difference is the content supporting it, simply: know where it often goes wrong, sort that. Rders are rarely innovative, they insist on enjoying the three main 'gotcha' crashes: smidsy, bends, overtaking (with filtering a #4 if you separate it from overtaking). All of those can largely be avoided by identifying the situation and riding accordingly.

Nothing 'advanced', it's basic.

[Potter]

I wouldn’t disagree with that but would argue that it applies to a lot of businesses in the tertiary sector.

Why would I need a financial advisor? I can fill in a tax return, why would I need an accountant, etc.?

Absolutely and that's my whole point in a nutshell.
You seem like a bright bloke and I bet you could do your own tax returns (if you pay someone to do it to save time then that's different). I'll bet your accountant doesn't want you to though, he'll want to maintain the myth that it's simply too hard and you should pay him to do it.

If you pay a nice man to follow you down roads that he knows really well then it's a given that afterwards (if he can communicate without being a knob) he will be able to give you tips to make you approach those roads better, I do it with my kid (unpaid of course) and he's better for it afterwards, but it's no great mystery and you'd eventually figure it out yourself anyway. And unless you have genuine learning difficulties then you're going to get better at spotting hazards when you're out riding.

I'm fine with advisors/trainers/etc, if they offer services and you want it then go buy it, but if you're not buying and then they do the heavy persuasion thing and claim "If you don't..." then it's usually bollocks.

[Noggin]

I'm simply saying that the majority of people that ride a motorcycle don't need (and indeed don't ask for) these improvement courses, so if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

And car drivers. And truck drivers. Etc etc

It applies to all road users really

I completely disagree, the vast majority of motorcyclists I see definitely do need these improvement courses (not that they would see it that way I guess). Along with how not to be a knob and alienate yourself from lots of other road users.

Unfortunately the second part of that could also apply to lots of people that cycle on the roads

To be honest you could be right, I always argue my points robustly but I always leave a gap to be wrong. I'm basing my opinions on growing up on bikes and riding them with other mates that did the same. I don't ride with anyone bad enough to need tuition, but perhaps the modern day motorcyclist needs this service.

I rarely see a motorcyclist that isn't capable of being safe and having fun, but some of the newer ones ride too fast for the road, although that's an ego thing, it's not a practical skills training thing.

I think it's different now as so few people grow up learning in fields/on quiet local roads and they just go out, do a CBT then a test and buy a bike. I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

But then, when I learnt to drive a car, my SDad said the same thing - "you will learn how to pass your test, then you have to learn how to drive"

And because I was 32, not 17 when I got my first bike, and had had a gap of about 6 years from taking the test to actually getting a bike, I was more aware that I needed more instruction.

I think that, had I been hooning around the fields on a bike and learning when the tyres let go and how to get it round a corning safely and doing stupid stuff and hopefully surviving, then I reckon I'd have been much more able to ride on the road and wouldn't have had the feeling that more instruction would help

[The Spin Doctor]

"If you don't do my course then you'll probably have an accident" - "If you don't come to my seminar you probably won't get rich" - "If you don't do my management course you'll probably be a bad manager".

This is always the strategy of consultants that want to sell you something that usually isn't worth buying, there has to be an "if you don't..."

if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

The trouble is that no amount of marketing is going to help when you have a preconceived idea about what it is I do, and don't actually want to read / listen / watch the marketing message.

Here's what I've written about my cornering courses:

"Ride4Fun COURSES -- one-or two-day courses
"The Performance: BENDS one-day course or the Performance: SPORT two-day course are our Ride4Fun courses, aimed at recreational riders. Opening up the enjoyment of the freedom that motorcycling brings, we'll develop your twisty road technique to a new level.

"Start with the basics - hazard perception, risk awareness and risk management.

"Add some machine control - steering, brakes and throttle.

"Then ride the right line - the unique blend of 'reference points', positioning and lines.

"Put together that's the Survival Skills 'Point & Squirt' system - a uniquely different approach to planned cornering."

I don't see anything about "having a crash" or "being a bad rider" if you don't take a course.

[Horse]

If you pay a nice man to follow you down roads that he knows really well then it's a given that afterwards (if he can communicate without being a knob) he will be able to give you tips to make you approach those roads better, I do it with my kid (unpaid of course) and he's better for it afterward

I posted a link to a 'Gooseneck'-like on-road bend. The reason that I used that bend on a particular session was because of the trainee's reasons for being with me. At the time of approaching and negotiating, she cursed me.

Amazingly, though, I didn't find that S bend by chance.

Training routes are selected for many attributes:
- Features appropriate to the session intention
- Features appropriate to the trainee's requirements
- Suitable stopping points for discussion
- Availability of facilities (toilets, refreshments, fuel)
- Suitable length for the time available
- Often circular, or linked

That's partly why trainers use routes they know - and have selected.

Also: your 'follow - comment' method is not training.

You're now emphasising, by simplification, exactly why external consultants may be beneficial.

[The Spin Doctor]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike. Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT. Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training! Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training. Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

Yes, you probably have - almost CERTAINLY have - REFINED those skills with more experience... but without the basic training to give you the underpinnings, it's a much tougher and longer job. I know that, because I taught myself to ride since there was no training option available at the time. I learned but it was accompanied by plenty of scraping noises and the occasional trip to hospital. One or two of the crashes I was lucky to survive.

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.



Post-test? Lots of riders go out in groups. But where can you get proper training in group riding? (Actually, with Survival Skills - I've offered group rider training for two decades )

[Potter]

This might surprise you, but I sort of agree.

In all honesty there isn't much in this whole thread that you've written that I fundamentally disagree with, it's maybe just some context and our views on whether it should be pushed on people.

The reason I don't buy into most of this advanced training is that you can't just slide experience into someone's brain, so I think advanced training is limited to a few fundamental tips and then letting them build up their experience - unless you're going to drill them through every possible scenario and put in thousands of hours until it's instinctual, but that's not possible, it takes humans thousands of repetitions until even simple motor functions become automatic.

Once you understand positioning it's just watching out, you can't really teach anything more than that, you just have to get some experience until you've got enough time in various scenarios to make your reactions quicker and more appropriate.

As an aside, for hazard perception I told my lad to do what I do - I give a running commentary to myself on what I'm seeing, I always did and now I do it without thinking, even when racing, and on the road I comment on everything when I'm driving, it drives my wife nuts - "Hey look at that bloke on the edge of the pavement, has he got control of his dog?... Oh here we go, what's this bald twat in front doing?...FFS is this a woman in front...Look at that kid on a skateboard, any minute now he'll be in the road...these hedges need trimming...Oh hello, there was a pheasant in that hedgerow, I bet one will fly out any minute...blah...blah".

[weeksy]

I do think I could improve my lines, but often they're kinda dictated by road conditions round here. As you're coming towards a corner you find a 2' wide ridge of gravel in it, if you're on the left of it, you're unlikely to cross it to get a better line.
But I guess arguably that's partly my fault due to where I live and ride

But seeing others and being told what to do doesn't necessarily mean I can or will do it, another weakness of mine for sure.

[Horse]

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

The DSA/DVSA carry the blame here, but as a result of the historic background of their main advisers. ie Roadcraft-informed - and constrained. And that wasn't maintained through lack of information, they took the attitude (read the blurb on their books) of 'we are the experts' and refused to consider alternatives and enhancements.

You may detect a hint of bitterness here? I spent a lot of time on this, including offering the opportunity for them to experience a totally different training regime where absolute novices were taught steering.

Also, they were aware (in about 2006) that only 1/3 instructors claimed any real understanding of countersteering- at the time when Mod1was being introduced.

[Horse]

I do think I could improve my lines, but often they're kinda dictated by road conditions round here. As you're coming towards a corner you find a 2' wide ridge of gravel in it, if you're on the left of it, you're unlikely to cross it to get a better line.
But I guess arguably that's partly my fault due to where I live and ride

But seeing others and being told what to do doesn't necessarily mean I can or will do it, another weakness of mine for sure.

If you want a short essay explaining 'positioning', either Spin or I could write one.

But it would kill the thread

[Noggin]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike.

Ok. That's a maybe for me. (I had learnt to drive on the farm as a kid, so the car test is no comparison)

Bear in mind I took my test in about 1997 so things taught were a little different in someways, and didn't buy a bike until late 2002 so had to relearn after a 6 year gap

I did what was supposed to be a five day course to ride 600+ machines afterwards. I got 3.5 days training as I was ill for one day and the last day I had my test late morning!!

Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT.

I can, but also I had a good understanding of how those things worked from driving cars, buses, tractors and so just needed to work out the levers instead of the pedals

Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training!

I wheelied away from a junction turning right on a lean back style 125. Ok, I learnt that I 'dumped the clutch', but I wasn't taught how to control that better, I worked it out for myself, and on the four day long course, I just pulled away from everything incredibly slowly

Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training.

I tried to negotiate a mini roundabout in Bristol with a drain cover on my 'line' - all I could hear in my head was "DRAIN COVERS ARE SLIPPERY" from all the people I'd talked to over the years and in trying to avoid it I ended up riding up the pavement looking for a gap in the parked cars to get back on the road

Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

Cones? No recollection of cones. We rode around a car park to make sure we could stay on the bike then went out on the road that afternoon. Closest I got to a hairpin was learning to do a U-Turn (badly) for my test - I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

the absolute best thing for me was the second instructor (I had one for the 125 and a different one for the 500) explained countersteering.

But no, I don't think I came out of the training/test feeling 100% in control.

I may have learned core skills, but that just enabled me to ride the bike - they did not make me a safe rider!! Which is why I went for more training when I got a bike and continue to do so!!

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

I agree that the test is far harder now, so hopefully better

My SDad took his bike test and it involved riding around the block where the instructor could see you for two of the four sides!! So things do of course improve!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

Exactly - what is the point of core skills if you have no idea why you learnt them!!!

Post-test? Lots of riders go out in groups. But where can you get proper training in group riding? (Actually, with Survival Skills - I've offered group rider training for two decades )

Yes, I think you can - depending on the type of person you are and who you ride with


I do think further training is a really good idea, but I don't think I learnt to be safe on a bike on the road from taking my training and test!!! But maybe that's only one particularly bad experience and not the norm? (Although from talking to friends who took the test at a similar time, I think it was more usual than unusual!)

[Potter]

Also, they were aware (in about 2006) that only 1/3 instructors claimed any real understanding of countersteering- at the time when Mod1was being introduced.

In 1991 I remember telling the IAM guy about counter steering but I didn't know it was called that, I had great difficulty explaining to him that before I tipped into a bend I tried to turn the handlebars the opposite way and it made the bike tip in. I remember him and my dad telling me that I was going to kill myself doing stupid things like that.

It was only many years later I read about it in a magazine and realised there was a name for it.

The advanced riding guys (mostly policemen) my dad rode with told me I'd be dead in six months. I stopped going out with them in the end.