Honda, Yamaha, WTF is going on there in WSB and GPs

[weeksy]

I was chatting with Legion748 yesterday and we were talking racing.

Honda and Yamaha have been in the doldrums in one way or another now, since, well, forever..

I can understand how Ducati would have the jump on them in a particular year/season, but surely the next year Honda have brought in enough engineers, tech, electronics to sort that out... but somehow, not.
There must come a time when someone says "FFS go pay that bloke double his salary and get him in here" whoever 'that bloke' is.

The Yamaha in GPs has been down on power for 7 years now maybe ? The Honda has had shit power delivery that no-one can ride...

It can't be that hard can it ?

[KungFooBob]

Is it worth it tho'?

Look at the markets where both sell the most bikes and the types of bike they're selling. Does a championship winning bike/rider make much difference to sales?

I'd imagine that they only really compete to sell road bikes.

Ducati don't sell shopping bikes.

[weeksy]

Is it worth it tho'?

Look at the markets where both sell the most bikes and the types of bike they're selling. Does a championship winning bike/rider make much difference to sales?

I'd imagine that they only really compete to sell road bikes.

Well if it's not worth spending 'more' then is it worth spending anything at all ? May as well just bin the series completely if you're not going to try and win it ?

[weeksy]

Ducati don't sell shopping bikes.

Really ? Tell that to the Scrambler, the Multi, the Hypermotard. They're maybe not a CB650 but they're not race bikes that's for sure.

[Skub]

To answer the question of why it's taking Honda and Yamaha so long to win again,look at how long Ducati were in the doldrums. The talent of Casey Stoner made the Ducati look better than it was. Teammates the calibre of Marco Melandri and Nicky Hayden were regualrly trailing around the back of the field,while Stoner was bagging wins. When Stoner left we saw just how off the pace Ducati was. Ask Rossi who said he and Burgess could fix it in 15 minutes.

Probably the biggest step to getting the Duke on the podium was when they Hired Gigi and that was no overnight change either.

In the prototype class small increments from one season to the next is what wins races. A fraction of a second off and your bike is out of the top ten,regardless of which rider is on it. This is more especially true since the advent of aero. Ducati have really stolen a march on the Japanese factories,which means they are running to stand still.

Come 2027 the rules changes may close the gap a little,but with Gigi involved,I wouldn't bet on it.

[mangocrazy]

What he ^^^^^ said...

[mangocrazy]

And just to make the point, Joan Mir clocks the 6th fastest time in Free Practice, less than 4 tenths off the fastest time. On the slowest bike on the grid...

[Mr. Dazzle]

As Martin Brundle sometimes points out on teh F1 commentary, it's amazing that they're so close when the only component they share is the Tyres*.

Maybe it's the tyres which actually matter

*yeah yeah I know, not strictly true but YKWIM.

[mangocrazy]

One of the keys to Ducati's 2024 domination was the way they used the 'new' Michelin rear.

[Yorick]

Well, the Hondas and top Yamaha had quite a good showing today

[D.A.]

Hi guys. I'm new here, but I might as well just dive in and maybe get shot down...

I reckon Gerry Burgess summed it up years ago when he said: “Racing and racing development is cyclic and probably always will be.” As for Gigi: besides being a genius designer, he seems to be the first to have realised that the more bikes you can put on the grid, the more data and rider feedback you’ll get. You can test all you want, but the ultimate test is the race itself - anything else is more or less guesswork. Now, because they’ve always worked with live data, Ducati are years ahead of the Japanese manufacturers, as is borne out by the glut of championships that they’ve won, and will continue to win, possibly for the next few years.

[Yorick]

Hi guys. I'm new here, but I might as well just dive in and maybe get shot down...

I reckon Gerry Burgess summed it up years ago when he said: “Racing and racing development is cyclic and probably always will be.” As for Gigi: besides being a genius designer, he seems to be the first to have realised that the more bikes you can put on the grid, the more data and rider feedback you’ll get. You can test all you want, but the ultimate test is the race itself - anything else is more or less guesswork. Now, because they’ve always worked with live data, Ducati are years ahead of the Japanese manufacturers, as is borne out by the glut of championships that they’ve won, and will continue to win, possibly for the next few years.

We love new folk talking bike racing. Please stick around.

[mangocrazy]

I think the 'genius of Gigi' has manifested itself in more than just the purely technical side, he's also managed the organisational side of things (the right people in the right positions), the interpersonal aspects (managing a bunch of Italians and dealing with competing requirements from different satellite teams) as well as instilling a sense of calm and order in the whole operation. The arrival of MM may or may not have disrupted that state of affairs (they've certainly lost one satellite team and a number of riders to other teams) but the jury is still out on that one.

It's also easy to forget that Ducati were in the wilderness for years prior to Gigi's arrival. Historically Honda have been the winningest team, but like all empires they eventually crumble and are replaced by a usurper. How soon that will happen to Ducati is anybody's guess.

[D.A.]

The arrival of MM may or may not have disrupted that state of affairs (they've certainly lost one satellite team and a number of riders to other teams) but the jury is still out on that one.

It's also easy to forget that Ducati were in the wilderness for years prior to Gigi's arrival. Historically Honda have been the winningest team, but like all empires they eventually crumble and are replaced by a usurper. How soon that will happen to Ducati is anybody's guess.

You’ve made a ton of valid points in your post, and I couldn’t agree more. As far as Marquez is concerned: I’d say he’s caused massive disruptions amongst some of the Ducati personnel, many of whom probably thought they had jobs for life. Pramac’s move to Yamaha, the current MotoGP Champion quitting Ducati (why? https://bit.ly/43eHH1m), the outflow of Ducati riders with championship potential: all this may, or may not have been anticipated by Dall’Igna, but you can bet that, even if he had foreseen those developments, he’d still have made the decision to assign Marquez to the Factory Team (you can’t “promote” the best rider in the class... can you?). Marquez’ “apprenticeship” with Gresini was sufficient to convince Dall’Igna that that was the way to go - and the first step towards another Ducati MotoGp Championship winning season was completed this weekend. No wonder he was kissing Marquez’s number after the race!!

[mangocrazy]

Interesting link - did Jorge really over-value himself, or is that a bit of a smokescreen? I guess we don't know. But cuddly Gigi is ruthlessly focussed purely on winning, and he sees all the data of all the riders so he will certainly have seen things in MM's data that made him determined to retain MM at all costs. How that will play out in the future is anybody's guess. But MM's arrival in the factory team has significantly weakened Pecco's standing.

It was interesting to see Gigi say words to the effect that no one rider develops the bike, Gigi merely learns from them and the engineers make the decisions. I think that much of Honda's woes can be attributed to solely following Marc's lead in giving feedback and prioritising that over all else.

[D.A.]

Interesting link - did Jorge really over-value himself, or is that a bit of a smokescreen? I guess we don't know. But cuddly Gigi is ruthlessly focussed purely on winning, and he sees all the data of all the riders so he will certainly have seen things in MM's data that made him determined to retain MM at all costs. How that will play out in the future is anybody's guess. But MM's arrival in the factory team has significantly weakened Pecco's standing.

I dunno about Jorge - maybe he did overprice himself - but he was never going to win that one, and cuddly Gigi really stuck it to him, if you believe the headlines! And I wouldn’t say Pecco’s position is significantly weakened (yet). Argentina might reveal his potential, as he prefers the track to Buriram. However, while he does sound as if he’s on the back foot, remember that both he and Marquez are seasoned, crafty campaigners - and they’re choosing their words carefully, for now. The test of strength has certainly begun, but for me, Bagnaia’s assertion that Marquez had been “playing with us” stood out as a clear indication that there’s no room for error for Pecco - and he knows it.

It was interesting to see Gigi say words to the effect that no one rider develops the bike, Gigi merely learns from them and the engineers make the decisions. I think that much of Honda's woes can be attributed to solely following Marc's lead in giving feedback and prioritising that over all else.

I take the “no one rider” bit as Gigi’s reiteration of the “Ducati first, rider second” policy that has been consistently applied through the years. Ask Rossi, Hayden, Stoner, Dovizioso, Lorenzo…etc. I bet they’d tell you: “He means it.”

As far as Yamaha and Honda are concerned, Rossi always insisted that “The rider is more important than the bike”. That might be true. But the other side of that coin could show how a dominant lead rider, who’s winning multiple World Championships, might leave behind a development strategy biased in favour of his own very particular set-up preferences and riding style when he moves on to pastures new. In short, he leaves behind a bike that nobody else can ride (Rossi/Yamaha? Marquez/Honda?).

I don't see there being a “quick fix” for that situation because, hidden from public view, the manufacturer’s design philosophy may have evolved, over an extended period of time, into something that was barely recognisable from what it was before. If that sounds daft, look at Ducati, “then” and “now”. The implication here - looking at Honda and Yamaha - is the possibility that established habits and thought patterns sometimes die hard when a “failing” bike is struggling to win… “Which way do we go? Do we stick with our current development plans, or do we start afresh? How hard, how fast, and how far do we push before we can start looking for positive results?” At the moment, it seems those questions are still hanging, unanswered and floating in the air, for both Honda and Yamaha.

[mangocrazy]

Back in the days when riders could ride around problems, then Rossi's mantra probably made sense. But these days unless you have a bike that can compete, you're simply not at the races; witness MM's struggles with his most recent Hondas. But put the best rider on the best bike (and from the evidence of Buriram that would be MM on the factory Ducati), then they/it will be pretty much untouchable. But as you say, different tracks throw up different results; Argentina is also a track where Aprilia have traditionally shone.

Not sure about Rossi making the Yamaha a bike that only he could ride. Lorenzo was quick from the get go on a bike that was designed around Rossi. But nobody apart from MM could win consistently on the Honda once it had been moulded to Marc's wishes.

I'd see the 'green shoots of recovery' at both Honda and Yamaha. They both still have a long way to go, but they are both making progress. Joan Mir and Fabio Q getting directly in to Q2 can be regarded as evidence of that. But the caveat is that it's at a track they've tested extensively at. More data required...

[D.A.]

Again, I agree with with you, but this time only 95% - and even that 5 per cent’s not a “disagreement” - I just have different take on Lorenzo - and also on Casey Stoner, if it comes to that. I see them both as unique talents in their own right - and I’d put them alongside Rossi and Marquez, right up there on the top rung of the “Talent Ladder”.

Stoner was recently described by Valentino as “the most talented rider ever to ride in MotoGP” (but I bet he only said that cuz he wanted to have a sly dig at Marquez ). I believe every MotoGP team Stoner rode for was staggered by his abilities - all of which were backed-up by his data. Reportedly, he always insisted on the barest minimum of electronic “interference” (his word) when he was on the bike. He hated all the “gadgetry” because he wanted total control of what was underneath him. I remember how he could go out - in all weathers - and put in a qualification lap that no other rider could beat… Seems like a lifetime ago, now.

Lorenzo jumped onto Rossi’s bike and beat Rossi on it. Look at him when he was on his way, through the 125’s and the 250’s. His nickname was “round the outside” - and when you saw him do it, it looked impossible - no: really, really impossible. No wonder Valentino fought so hard to persuade Yamaha not to sign him!

“Green shoots of recovery”? We’ll have to wait and see. For me, the fact that all the riders and all the bikes are so closely-matched is has diminished the excitement levels of MotoGP. I suspect that Bagnaia’s “playing with us” remark might be closer to the Mark (sic) than we think. As you indicated: Marquez is the best rider on the best bike. Maybe he’ll adopt Rossi’s approach, from years ago - and start thinking about “The Show”.

[mangocrazy]

Again, I agree with with you, but this time only 95% - and even that 5 per cent’s not a “disagreement” - I just have different take on Lorenzo - and also on Casey Stoner, if it comes to that. I see them both as unique talents in their own right - and I’d put them alongside Rossi and Marquez, right up there on the top rung of the “Talent Ladder”.

Agree 100%. My point was only that Rossi's "development" of the Yamaha did not preclude Lorenzo from winning on it.

Stoner was recently described by Valentino as “the most talented rider ever to ride in MotoGP” (but I bet he only said that cuz he wanted to have a sly dig at Marquez ). I believe every MotoGP team Stoner rode for was staggered by his abilities - all of which were backed-up by his data. Reportedly, he always insisted on the barest minimum of electronic “interference” (his word) when he was on the bike. He hated all the “gadgetry” because he wanted total control of what was underneath him. I remember how he could go out - in all weathers - and put in a qualification lap that no other rider could beat… Seems like a lifetime ago, now.

Again, agree entirely. Such a shame we were denied the spectacle of Stoner and Marquez going truly fead to head.

Lorenzo jumped onto Rossi’s bike and beat Rossi on it. Look at him when he was on his way, through the 125’s and the 250’s. His nickname was “round the outside” - and when you saw him do it, it looked impossible - no: really, really impossible. No wonder Valentino fought so hard to persuade Yamaha not to sign him!

Indeed - 'Por Fuera', in Spanish, I believe...

“Green shoots of recovery”? We’ll have to wait and see. For me, the fact that all the riders and all the bikes are so closely-matched is has diminished the excitement levels of MotoGP. I suspect that Bagnaia’s “playing with us” remark might be closer to the Mark (sic) than we think. As you indicated: Marquez is the best rider on the best bike. Maybe he’ll adopt Rossi’s approach, from years ago - and start thinking about “The Show”.

I'm hopeful that the Japanese are closing the gap, albeit slowly, to the European manufacturers, but we'll need several more races to prove or disprove that view. Not sure how riders and bikes being closely matched diminishes the excitement levels though. What really buggers the racing up is a combination of aero and these ridiculous front tyre pressure rules (IMHO, of course).

[D.A.]

I'm hopeful that the Japanese are closing the gap, albeit slowly, to the European manufacturers, but we'll need several more races to prove or disprove that view.

I reckon Gerry Burgess summed it up years ago when he said: “Racing and racing development is cyclic and probably always will be.”

Not sure how riders and bikes being closely matched diminishes the excitement levels though. What really buggers the racing up is a combination of aero and these ridiculous front tyre pressure rules (IMHO, of course).

Well, I think that’s only a part of the problem, really. Earlier, I suggested that the riders and the bikes were closely matched, but, thinking about it, I guess that really only applies at the start of the race, doesn’t it? The rules and the aero, as you’ve rightly pointed out, are factors which, when introduced to the mix, might be defined as counter-productive in terms of pure, out-and-out racing, but the most significant and potentially negative factor to impact upon truly competitive racing could be when the best rider is on the best bike.

Cast your mind back to the Days of Doohan. In a press conference, a reporter commented on the huge winning margin Doohan had created by the end of a race (can’t remember which GP it was). Doohan, then at the height of his powers, glared back at the reporter and replied: “What do you want me to do, slow down?” Rossi used to do it (remember the ten-second penalty in Australia, 2003?) - and Marquez did it yesterday, in Thailand, when he slowed down to allow his brother to pass him, ostensibly because Mark's front tyre pressure was too low.

After the genuine battles we’ve seen: Doohan v Criville, Rossi v-Biaggi-Melandri-Gibernau-Stoner-Lorenzo-Marquez, Bagnaia v Martinez. If he can really “cruise” to the win, what will Marquez do for the rest of the season? If he wins by a tenth of a second - or by ten seconds, I’ll be looking and wondering…?

I know, I know, I’ve probably got it all wrong, but I’m thinking those thoughts - and that’s what I mean by “diminished excitement”.