Rumble in the Bronx

[chillitt]

HD were in dire straights before covid.

Indeed. But that's what the PREVIOUS business plan was supposed to sort by launching new models which would appeal to new markets.

Now the situation is even worse, hence the ditching of the Bronx and the 'return to core values'... again.

Would it even have sold if produced? I'm 100% sure there's an equivalent Japanese bike that would be 1000s cheaper.

Harleys are stupidly priced for what they are, take my lad's Sportster. Over 6k for a bike that has broken down twice in the month or so he has ridden it and would be comprehensively out performed by any 650cc Japanese custom on the market today. A quick shifty at the local HD dealers website shows that pretty much everything used is the sort of money that would buy something Japanese and new.

The core values are all wrong, apart from my lad and a couple of local hipsters posing about on 883s, every HD rider I've seen recently has been older than me and I'm closer now to 50 than 40. Young people who ride bikes just don't want slow, overpriced bikes, the people that like Harleys don't actually ride the bloody things or old guys like me who have already bought their 'last" bikes and won't be buying new again.

Isn't all that the reason why they do need to try something new, rather than reasons not to?

[MrLongbeard]

Would it even have sold if produced? I'm 100% sure there's an equivalent Japanese bike that would be 1000s cheaper.

Nope, probably not, what was their last attempt at water cooled, the V-Rod??

Harleys are stupidly priced for what they are, take my lad's Sportster. Over 6k for a bike that has broken down twice in the month or so he has ridden it and would be comprehensively out performed by any 650cc Japanese custom on the market today. A quick shifty at the local HD dealers website shows that pretty much everything used is the sort of money that would buy something Japanese and new.

A jap bike is probably going to be cheaper, more reliable and faster than most bikes on the market, but we still have Triumph, Ducati, KTM etc etc etc.

The core values are all wrong, apart from my lad and a couple of local hipsters posing about on 883s, every HD rider I've seen recently has been older than me and I'm closer now to 50 than 40. Young people who ride bikes just don't want slow, overpriced bikes, the people that like Harleys don't actually ride the bloody things or old guys like me who have already bought their 'last" bikes and won't be buying new again.

Sod off, I'm still young

[MrLongbeard]

Would it even have sold if produced? I'm 100% sure there's an equivalent Japanese bike that would be 1000s cheaper.

Nope, probably not, what was their last attempt at water cooled, the V-Rod??

Fickle lot motorcyclists aren't we.
The V-Rod was somewhat a flop, Harley riders didn't want a reliable water cooled bike, and other riders didn't buy it because it was a Harley.

Yet fast forward a few years and everyone wets their pants over the Rocket III and the Diavel, which I reckon is where Harley would be now if not further along if the V-Rod.

Sod it, I'm taking the afternoon off and going to play on my FXFBS for a couple of hours

[Hot_Air]

everyone wets their pants over the Rocket III and the Diavel, which I reckon is where Harley would be now if not further along if the V-Rod.

I agree. But Triumph and Ducati hit the power cruiser nail on the head right away. The Rocket had headline-grabbing engine size (yet decent handling).

And Ducati created a rare marriage of cruiser layout and looks, horsepower to win at Top Trumps, and - for the first time in a cruiser - wonderful handling.

Can Harley to catch up? I don’t see it (sadly). At least they haven’t done a BMW: launch a cruiser-without-cruiser-ergonomics.

Also, do Harley dealers help? I went to my local dealer but didn’t get the time of day because I didn’t know my FXFBS from my FCBGDGH. Harley names? WTF!

[Horse]

And Ducati created ... and - for the first time in a cruiser - wonderful handling.

I’d love Harley to catch up but don’t see it happening. At least they haven’t done a BMW: launch a cruiser-without-cruiser-ergonomics.

Steering is predictably sluggish at slow speeds. Above that, we reckoned this was the best-handling cruiser you could buy back in ’98.

[MrLongbeard]

Also, do Harley dealers help? I went to my local dealer but didn’t get the time of day because I didn’t know my FXFBS from my FCBGDGH. Harley names? WTF!

Yeah, that gets old quick when trying to read Harley forums, I only know mine is an FXFBS because I need to know when I go shopping for parts.

[Hot_Air]

I guess we’ll see how the latest BMW R18 compares to the new Rocket 3, Diavel and Xdiavel. My money would be on Italian handling (100 Kg lighter bike than the Rocket) but I’ve not ridden the Beemer.

But Mr Longbeard’s right: Harley could have owned this segment if they’d played it differently.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'm 36 and I have quite a lot of disposable income.

I would really like a Diaval. You couldn't give me a traditional Harley (well you could but I'd sell it!). The V-rod is kinda cool but why would you but that over a Diaval or new Rocket 3?

Therein lies Harley's problem as I see it.

[demographic]

I quite liked the idea of the VR1000 from about 1990 or so?
I mean, it looked like a melted welly but had a a modern engine, good suspension components and looked like it might even go fast.
Then before that I liked the XR 750 but even that only won so much cos they banned anything that could beat it.

So that makes two Harleys over quite a lot of history.
Oh, actually four cos the one on this thread and I'd love a bash on a livewire.


The brand just isn't my thing I guess but I've never really got cruisers.

[Taipan]

I'm 36 and I have quite a lot of disposable income.

I would really like a Diaval. You couldn't give me a traditional Harley (well you could but I'd sell it!). The V-rod is kinda cool but why would you but that over a Diaval or new Rocket 3?

Therein lies Harley's problem as I see it.

The problem Harley has is its losing its faithful because they don't like new Harleys and the new breed of cruiser riders don't like Harley's as much as the previous lot. So I think they're pretty fucked really as I just can't see them making a compromise that suits both sides. Harley needs more film placements and celeb owners to try and regain/build its fading iconic status and imo this is where their marketing dept should be focusing.

[cheb]

Small anecdotal sample size I'll grant you, but the only people I know that like Harleys are older riders who only like Harleys and non motorcyclists who think they look cool in old films. Not a great market segment for sales.

[Hot_Air]

Harley needs more film placements and celeb owners

Surely Batwoman is a celebrity? And she begins her riding career with a Harley (later replaced by a bike that can fire grappling hooks - why didn't Harley think of that?).

Batwoman To Save Gotham On A Harley

[MrLongbeard]

Don't forget the Fresh Prince

[The Spin Doctor]

Would it even have sold if produced? I'm 100% sure there's an equivalent Japanese bike that would be 1000s cheaper.

Can't think of a Japanese equivalent. Ducati, Moto Guzzi, perhaps... Indian seem to be the bogeyman in Harley's eyes.

I suppose the point is that it might have appealed to people like me, who would never normally consider a Harley. I believe the aim was to keep the price down, as they were aiming at emerging markets.

Harleys are stupidly priced for what they are, take my lad's Sportster. Over 6k for a bike that has broken down twice in the month or so he has ridden it and would be comprehensively out performed by any 650cc Japanese custom on the market today. A quick shifty at the local HD dealers website shows that pretty much everything used is the sort of money that would buy something Japanese and new.

The core values are all wrong, apart from my lad and a couple of local hipsters posing about on 883s, every HD rider I've seen recently has been older than me and I'm closer now to 50 than 40. Young people who ride bikes just don't want slow, overpriced bikes, the people that like Harleys don't actually ride the bloody things or old guys like me who have already bought their 'last" bikes and won't be buying new again.

It's something I've been saying for a long time, that targeting the 'high-end' of the market for more mature riders has a very finite end when we all get too old. I think several companies have a rocky road ahead of them - including Triumph. They've been talking about a 300cc entry model single for 8-9 years, and it keeps being spotted in spy shots. They have a tie-up with one of the Indian manufacturers but as yet there's no word of a competitor for the YZF-R125 or R3, both bikes selling in some quantities to new riders in the UK and US (don't believe everything you hear about the Yanks all learning to ride on Sportsters).

[The Spin Doctor]

He took a pay cut BEFORE contract negotiations?
Obviously more than one side to every story!

Yep. According to his manager,Dovi was happy to take less money to help ease some of the strain on Ducati's resources,which were suffering like so many other businesses,due to Covid. This wasn't part of any contract discussions,just an act of goodwill on Dovi's part.

Well, we're off topic here (so what's new ) but the report I read said that he was asking for a pay RISE on the back of his three 2nd place finishes.

So... someone isn't telling the truth.

[Skub]

He took a pay cut BEFORE contract negotiations?
Obviously more than one side to every story!

Yep. According to his manager,Dovi was happy to take less money to help ease some of the strain on Ducati's resources,which were suffering like so many other businesses,due to Covid. This wasn't part of any contract discussions,just an act of goodwill on Dovi's part.

Well, we're off topic here (so what's new ) but the report I read said that he was asking for a pay RISE on the back of his three 2nd place finishes.

So... someone isn't telling the truth.

Perhaps two separate things at work here.

When Covid arrived and the world stopped turning,Dovi took a reduction in wages,along with the rest of the world.

When negotiating a new contract with Ducati he may have been seeking wages in keeping with his performance the last couple of years.

So it may have been both.

[Rockburner]

And Ducati created ... and - for the first time in a cruiser - wonderful handling.

I’d love Harley to catch up but don’t see it happening. At least they haven’t done a BMW: launch a cruiser-without-cruiser-ergonomics.

Steering is predictably sluggish at slow speeds. Above that, we reckoned this was the best-handling cruiser you could buy back in ’98.

I had one of those on loan once: most uncomfortable riding position I've ever experienced.

[Taipan]

And Ducati created ... and - for the first time in a cruiser - wonderful handling.

I’d love Harley to catch up but don’t see it happening. At least they haven’t done a BMW: launch a cruiser-without-cruiser-ergonomics.

Steering is predictably sluggish at slow speeds. Above that, we reckoned this was the best-handling cruiser you could buy back in ’98.

I had one of those on loan once: most uncomfortable riding position I've ever experienced.

Glad you said that. One of those has been on my "to buy" list for years and have nearly hit the buy it now button a couple of times, but I'll scrub it from the list now.

[KungFooBob]

but but but, James Bond rode one!

[Rockburner]

Steering is predictably sluggish at slow speeds. Above that, we reckoned this was the best-handling cruiser you could buy back in ’98.

I had one of those on loan once: most uncomfortable riding position I've ever experienced.

Glad you said that. One of those has been on my "to buy" list for years and have nearly hit the buy it now button a couple of times, but I'll scrub it from the list now.

I rode it for about 45 minutes (home from Vines), threw it in the garage and didn't touch it until i had to take it back. My lower back was killing me after 15 minutes on the thing.

I thought the Rocket 3 was going to be the same, but i got used to that within about 5 minutes. Even the HDs i tried weren't as bad.