"Understeering" on a motorbike

[Mr Moofo]

Thanks,
Saw that today ...
Will ask Billys if they can get them in and fit ...

I was expecting to see a big fuck of screw or nail in the tyre - and it wasn't just a angular hole

[dosruedas]

I got rid of a Multistrada 1260 for the same reason - far too much countersteering effort was required to keep the bike turning in a corner. I tried the diavel but found it little better. I paid for profession help setting up the Multi but it made no difference. The geometry of the bike is to blame and there is nothing to be done with it. I think it is a great shame as it was a wonderful machine apart from that.

[Mr Moofo]

I got rid of a Multistrada 1260 for the same reason - far too much countersteering effort was required to keep the bike turning in a corner. I tried the diavel but found it little better. I paid for profession help setting up the Multi but it made no difference. The geometry of the bike is to blame and there is nothing to be done with it. I think it is a great shame as it was a wonderful machine apart from that.

At least knowing that will stop me trying to correct it!
And learn to live with it.
I will jack the back end up a little to make it less noticeable

[Mr. Dazzle]

Swings and roundabouts innit....you say "slow to turn" i say "wonderfully stable in a straight line" Cruisers are for cruising after all.

[Horse]

to blame

Not really. It just 'is'.

'Because of', yes.

So, 'because of ... a rider needs to ... '

[Mr Moofo]

to blame

Not really. It just 'is'.

'Because of', yes.

So, 'because of ... a rider needs to ... '

eh?

[Horse]

The geometry of the bike is to blame

'Because of', yes.
So, 'because of ... a rider needs to ... '

eh?

I've added to the quote. Saying blame suggests fault. It's not the bike's fault, it just needs to be ridden in a different way. And that's not 'different from any other bike'. They all need bar pressure to some degree to initiate the turn and many need the pressure maintained to keep them in a turn.

[The Spin Doctor]

I've added to the quote. Saying blame suggests fault. It's not the bike's fault, it just needs to be ridden in a different way. And that's not 'different from any other bike'. They all need bar pressure to some degree to initiate the turn and many need the pressure maintained to keep them in a turn.

I know you know this... etc...

If a bike is straight-line stable (and virtually every bike out of the factor is, these days) then it needs counter-steering input to keep turning right through the turn - take that pressure away and the bike sits up - that's why it's straight-line stable.

A flat rear tyre - or one with a square profile or one dramatically squared off through wear - makes a bike reluctant to turn.

[The Spin Doctor]

They are 34 front 36 back - which is more or less what the manual says ...
but good point.

Try going up in 2psi increments at the rear. See if that makes a difference, once the new tyre's on.

[Tricky]

I got rid of a Multistrada 1260 for the same reason - far too much countersteering effort was required to keep the bike turning in a corner. I tried the diavel but found it little better. I paid for profession help setting up the Multi but it made no difference. The geometry of the bike is to blame and there is nothing to be done with it. I think it is a great shame as it was a wonderful machine apart from that.

That sounds strange- I've not experienced that at all myself on the 1200 Multi, which I think is pretty nimble and turns quickly for a big un , but having said that I have never really been conscious of ever countersteering as such on any bike.

I guess everything is relative though- what is an example of a bike that was /is "better" in this respect for you?

[Couchy]

I got rid of a Multistrada 1260 for the same reason - far too much countersteering effort was required to keep the bike turning in a corner. I tried the diavel but found it little better. I paid for profession help setting up the Multi but it made no difference. The geometry of the bike is to blame and there is nothing to be done with it. I think it is a great shame as it was a wonderful machine apart from that.

That sounds strange- I've not experienced that at all myself on the 1200 Multi, which I think is pretty nimble and turns quickly for a big un , but having said that I have never really been conscious of ever countersteering as such on any bike.

I guess everything is relative though- what is an example of a bike that was /is "better" in this respect for you?

Countersteering although essential is pretty much a modern discussion topic, as you it's something I never deliberately do but to hear some riders you can't possibly ride a bike without deliberately doing it every corner. It's very much become part of the riding by numbers so beloved of some instructors and new riders everywhere.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Everyone should try an early 80s superbike (such as a GS1000 or Z1000) that's been fitted with modern forks and yokes, the lack of trail makes them very stable, which means you need a hefty counter steer to get them turning, once turning the short modern forks and 17" front wheel give the bike ludicrously quick steering, whilst they're not dangerous, they're not pleasant, all the owners will tell you they handle better than a modern bike, apart from those that actually own a modern bike.

[Dodgy69]

It's a sensitive topic for sure... I'm in the camp of, I chuck my body weight over to turn, but the bike sorts the counter steering out. Big top heavy lumps would take more work, but very doable.

[Mr Moofo]

They are 34 front 36 back - which is more or less what the manual says ...
but good point.

Try going up in 2psi increments at the rear. See if that makes a difference, once the new tyre's on.

Will do…
Once I can find a new back tyre!

[Horse]

Countersteering although essential is pretty much a modern discussion topic, as you it's something I never deliberately do but to hear some riders you can't possibly ride a bike without deliberately doing it every corner. It's very much become part of the riding by numbers so beloved of some instructors and new riders everywhere.

Having met plenty of riders who couldn't get around corners without conscious effort, you're with Yorick in the lucky corner.

Your definition of modern might need adjustment, it's been known about for over a hundred years

Historically, UK rider training (and so DSA/DVSA content) was based on police Roadcraft. That denied the existence of steering, so that's what we got.

In many other countries, training content wasn't held back in the same way.

I guess you view Keith Code in the same 'by numbers' style? He included it in his books decades ago.

But that's irrelevant here. The point seems to be that the bike needs more effort - whether because of geometry, tyres, whatever - than the OP finds comfortable.

[Couchy]

Countersteering although essential is pretty much a modern discussion topic, as you it's something I never deliberately do but to hear some riders you can't possibly ride a bike without deliberately doing it every corner. It's very much become part of the riding by numbers so beloved of some instructors and new riders everywhere.

Having met plenty of riders who couldn't get around corners without conscious effort, you're with Yorick in the lucky corner.

Your definition of modern might need adjustment, it's been known about for over a hundred years

Historically, UK rider training (and so DSA/DVSA content) was based on police Roadcraft. That denied the existence of steering, so that's what we got.

In many other countries, training content wasn't held back in the same way.

I guess you view Keith Code in the same 'by numbers' style? He included it in his books decades ago.

But that's irrelevant here. The point seems to be that the bike needs more effort - whether because of geometry, tyres, whatever - than the OP finds comfortable.

I was given a motorbike and field at around 6 years old, me and my bro just got on and rode as did a lot of our friends, I don’t recall one of them crashing as they couldn’t get round a corner and not one of them was told to counter steer. I don’t doubt the riders you have had to do it as a conscious effort but I don’t understand why when many don’t ?
As for Keith code yes I’m of the same view point, I just don’t like riding by numbers although I appreciate some do and it does work for them and can get good results. I probably do a lot of the things from that way of teaching but I don’t consciously think of them as I just ride. I can tell you exactly what I’m doing if needed but I guess I was lucky to have started young, still doesn’t explain how I do them without ever having been taught them though.

[wull]

Think of a push bike, everybody does it subconsciously to a certain extent, especially with a push bike. If you turn left wanting to go left on push bike it will fall to the right, you have to push initially on the left bar then as the bike starts to fall to the left you turn to the left to achieve that left run.

That’s the laws of physics and fact, go have a try and let me know how you get on, have a look online and you’ll see.

The difference with motorbikes is the amount you counter steer is and subconsciously doing it to an extent where you turn in much better than if you didn’t do it that but more than you already more than likely do.

[Mr Moofo]

Okay all , bit of a curved ball.
My local tyre place has suggested that even MyTyres offering is on back order.
And have suggested that the can plug the tyre from the inside using a "mushroom" plug. Allegedly , they do many ...

Is this extremely foolish to do - or just something I wasn't aware of?

[mangocrazy]

I'd say it was a pragmatic and perfectly safe solution to a pressing problem. Today I plugged a car tyre with a mushroom plug and I'm very happy with it. I'm guessing they will also use tyre vulcanising liquid, so you'll have a pemanent solution. There's an awful lot of unnecessary drama surrounding tyre plugs - done right they're as safe as a new tyre. Your tyre place wouldn't have offered if there was any chance of comeback on them.

[Horse]

I don’t recall one of them crashing as they couldn’t get round a corner and not one of them was told to counter steer. I don’t doubt the riders you have had to do it as a conscious effort but I don’t understand why when many don’t ?

I may have a skewed PoV as I mainly met riders who had chosen to get training

One of the most extreme examples was a guy who had been riding longer than I had. He said that, all of a sudden, he just couldn't go around corners. We built the skills back up, but an essential part was to check for tension (and know what to do if there was) well before the start of the corner.

A lot of what I did was 'Born Again' riders. After basic clutch control and tight turns, we would take a break. During that, we would ask whether they knew how they steered a bike. Of course, they all knew. So we would ask them to show us. They would always 'direct steer'. Then we would get them to sit down and rest their palms on the edge of a table, move their shoulders side to side, then feel the pressure in their palms. Their usual reaction was confusion.

I don’t recall one of them crashing as they couldn’t get round a corner

However, it's consistently one of the three gotchas of biking. It's not easy for everyone.

I just don’t like riding by numbers

See below.

You will have a mental list because you've worked out the optimum, probably minimum, actions (aka 'lean' principles) and do it unconsciously.

Others won't have and don't. For those riders, the checklist works for them as the basis of training, then subsequently to help them as they ride on their own.

still doesn’t explain how I do them without ever having been taught them though.

Some people can learn from experimentation, others can't. You're lucky, I can't.

You probably, by experiment, by feel, etc., have been able to work out how to get the best for the least effort and input.

As far as steering goes, it's as simple as 'leaning'. You want to go., so lean your upper body left, etc. But that relies on upper body and relaxed arms, etc. Your extensive experience and confidence will support that. Many riders won't, they'll get into a situation then, when it starts to go wrong, they'll tense up and it'll all go wrong (target fixation, panic braking, etc). You learned to slide around in a field. For many riders, just a little slip or twitch from the tyres will feel like imminent disaster.

I probably do a lot of the things from that way of teaching but I don’t consciously think of them as I just ride. I can tell you exactly what I’m doing if needed

(See here)

Again, you have the method so clear that you don't have to (or need to) consciously go through it.

And, again, you're lucky that you can do that breakdown of actions. Many good riders can't. And that's the first half of what Code did: thought about it. Next half was to write it all down in a clear style (other views are available). The final third was to get the hype and business side going well.