Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Mussels]

I'm right on the other end of the EV convenience scale I think.

As I said ages ago, I'm pretty sure my next car will be an EV. Hopefully sooner rather than later if the new scheme at work is good.

During my thinking on this subject I've considered how many long journeys I do. Thinking back over the last 10 years I think I've done a >350 mile day once. Even that day had about 6 hours of hanging around in the middle. Other than that, even a 200 mile day would be pretty unusual for me. A 200 mile day without at least a few hour break somewhere is almost unheard of.

I've got a young child and I obviously plan on having her around for a bit, so I'm not at all concerned about touring/driving holidays.

I can park and charge off road at home. There are also half a dozen fast chargers within 5 mins walk of my house. There're dozens more around the city. Pretty much every brand that sells an EV worth having has a dealer in MK.

TBF I think Milton Keynes has been scored/rated/defined as the top place in the UK to own an EV a few times now.

I can't remember what the claimed range was on the car GM drove but it was surprising how much it dropped by driving on a motorway, that's key for me as most long journeys are on motorways. I don't do many in a year but I do enough not to want forced long breaks in expensive service stations.

Fortunately most programs about testing EVs have a bias that's easy to spot, the ones that look most dishonest are the ones promoting them. I couldn't work out the GM experiment, some selective editing sure but I don't think he set out to prove they were difficult.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeoh that's one thing that's maybe counter intuitive or surprising about EVs, the range drops almost in tune with the speed you're doing.

It's cause ICE cars are inefficient at slow speed and they get better as you faster. It takes more power to go faster, but piston engines also get more efficient the hard you work them. Therefore you end up with a sort of U shaped relationship, at slow speed the car is easy to propel but the engine isn't every efficient (in terms of fuel per unit horsepower). At higher speeds the car takes more power to move, but you offset that by running the engine at a more efficient point.

Piston engines are very very variable in their efficiency depending on how much power you're asking them to produce - look at this. This is showing how much fuel you need per horsepower (OK, not actually horsepower, sensible units). The colours are slightly backwards, red is good in this case. It's saying that to produce peak torque at the best point you need ~250g of fuel for every kwH of useful go, at the very worst case it's almost three times as much fuel for the same useful output. It's interesting to note that the engine is most efficient when it's going balls out making peak torque - which kinda makes sense when you consider how a throttle does it's job. That phenomenon is the entire reason they make hybrids.

.

Electric motors have a much simpler power/efficiency relationship. They do have some variability but nowhere near as much. Generally it's more a case of 'more go needs more electricity' and you don't get the U-shaped graph effect like in a piston engine car. The official range figures include a variety of driving, so if you do all motorway you will indeed get lower figures.

[Mussels]

That explains a lot, like why most EV companies don't want anyone towing or mounting anything on the roof and why I see Teslas travelling at 50mph along the motorway.
So drag is king in the EV world, I wonder if we'll see diesel shuttles transporting cars and passengers from one end of the M1 to the other.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The towing thing is also about braking. Most EVs use the motors to brake and the standard brakes are built on the assumption the motors are helping. All the ABS, EBD etc. is calibrated on that assumption. Putting a trailer on the back - especially one with it's own brakes - throws all that out of the window.

I'm sure they'll deal with it somehow, but it's just not a priority ATM. There's already talk of making trailers powered for example, so you plug them into the car.

BTW that graph also shows you how pants petrol engines are in some regards. It's takes 250g for that particular engine to make a kWh of useful go. 250g of petrol contains just over 3kwH of energy, so about 70% of the energy in the fuel is wasted even at the engine's most efficient point. Compare that to an electric motor which wastes 10% at most and <5% at it's best point. Or to put it another way, a 100kWh battery Tesla (which is a big battery) has the equivalent of an 11 litre fuel tank. Try fitting the fuel tank from a supermoto to a 600bhp BMW and see if it can drive 300 miles

[Mr. Dazzle]

Point being there's a shed load more power per kg in dinosaur juice

That is the entire foundation of the success of the ICE. It's the only reason we persist with an unreliable, complicated, inefficient, dirty, heavy, noisy and large engine. They're crap

They just run on a fuel thats really really good.

That is why anywhere you can provide electricity you don't use an ICE. Trains being the most obvious example, the fastest diesel train in the world is a design from the 70s.

[Mussels]

Point being there's a shed load more power per kg in dinosaur juice

That is the entire foundation of the success of the ICE. It's the only reason we persist with an unreliable, complicated, inefficient, dirty, heavy, noisy and large engine. They're crap

They just run on a fuel thats really really good.

That is why anywhere you can provide electricity you don't use an ICE. Trains being the most obvious example, the fastest diesel train in the world is a design from the 70s.

My train is diesel. It has decent air conditioning and mains power sockets available because they don't stress about how much electricity they are drawing from the 3rd rail. Unless there's another reason newer electric trains are always like stuffy cattle trucks.

[Yambo]

Bring back trolley buses and cars with trolley poles. You know it makes sense. Batteries are not the answer!

[Skub]

unreliable, complicated, inefficient, dirty, heavy, noisy and large engine. They're crap

But they do make lovely sounds whilst being crap.

[Mr. Dazzle]

You won't be saying that when I get a bike which sounds like a Tie Fighter.

[Rockburner]

unreliable, complicated, inefficient, dirty, heavy, noisy and large engine. They're crap

But they do make lovely sounds whilst being crap.

Not on a Sunday morning when you're trying to have a lie in they don't.

In all seriousness - we (as a petrol consuming society) have been nurtured and groomed practically since birth to 'like' the sound of a rorty engine.
But if you take a small baby, who has not yet been inducted into the way of the petrol-head, and make it listen to the sound of a loud bike or car, I bet it won't appreciate it much.

Objectively speaking, cars and bike sound shit. Subjectively, we all love the noise because of what it represents to us.

[Mussels]

I've hardly heard any decent sounding cars for years, they have all had their capacity and exhaust volume removed. Even the 5l v8 I had sounded a bit feeble.
When I do hear a loud car is usually a bodged Barry boy motor that sounds terrible.

[wheelnut]

I once had to pay 15p a litre more for petrol in a garage by the side of dual carriageway 'cause I had no other choice. They didn't have the fancy high octane stuff I wanted either. The c*nts. Petrol engines are obviously a stupid idea.

So you would have no issues with range anxiety doing a 1000 mile trip in a day in an electric car? I know it’s not something I would fancy.

[Mr. Dazzle]

So you would have no issues with range anxiety doing a 1000 mile trip in a day in an electric car? I know it’s not something I would fancy.

I would have range anxiety trying to do that. I'm not going to try and do that, I can't imagine i ever would.

The fact I can't do 1000 mile days in an EV bothers me about as much as the fact I can't to space in one. Judging from the number you see on the road now I can hardly be the only one

[Cousin Jack]

IFrom the article, their intent is to make them more like motorway service areas than 'petrol stations'. So mrs CJ gets a T&P stop while the car is charging.

That will help a lot!

FWIW my nearest M'way is 80 miles away, so getting to refuel and home again will take 2-3 hours and leave me with a half empty 'tank'.

And both Mr and Mrs CJ avoid M'way services like the plague! Overpriced driver-rooking factories, mostly filthy. Ugh!

[wheelnut]

So you would have no issues with range anxiety doing a 1000 mile trip in a day in an electric car? I know it’s not something I would fancy.

I would have range anxiety trying to do that. I'm not going to try and do that, I can't imagine i ever would.

The fact I can't do 1000 mile days in an EV bothers me about as much as the fact I can't to space in one. Judging from the number you see on the road now I can hardly be the only one

Well it would bother me. In June, we did 1200 miles in 3 days round the top of Scotland, last weekend we did 400 miles round the borders. It’s what we have a car/bike for - to go places.

At the moment an EV would only be useful as an additional vehicle (and that’s hardly green) for local pottering about.

It’s coming though, and the infrastructure will develop. What it won’t be is a cheaper way of getting about. The government will need to find a way to monetise it for one thing, and the fuel/forecourt companies will also need to find a way to retain a margin.

[Horse]

It’s coming though, and the infrastructure will develop.

What it won’t be is a cheaper way of getting about. The government will need to find a way to monetise it for one thing, and the fuel/forecourt companies will also need to find a way to retain a margin.

Yup, that ^ and that ^^

[Mr. Dazzle]

Mercedes have already said they're planning to maintain the same level of profitability with EVs as they do with ICE. So, no, I'm not anticipating a great egalitarian culture shift.

[millemille]

My 4 wheeled vehicle is a company one and I could choose any vehicle I want. Literally anything, there's no list as we're a small company, it's just a case of go and find what you want and buy it. I have a van (Citroen Dispatch) and it suits me perfectly; commercial vehicle so tax is minimal, good on fuel (genuine average of 48mpg), does get used as a van for work but is also so handy for motorbike and mountain bike transporting.

I drive about 35k miles a year in it, all round the country.

When there is a comparable electric van with a genuine 200 mile range and doesn't cost more than £40k I'll have one in a shot.

[Mussels]

I found this calculator from Renault to work out the range you'll get at different speeds.
https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehi ... ttery.html
The WLTP figure is 245 miles which in the calculator corresponds to driving about 25mph the whole way.
Put the air temperature scale back to a more realistic 5 degrees and the absolute maximum range is 200 miles at 19mph without the heater on.
Move the slider up to 68mph and the range is now 129 miles, so in my 245 mile car I'd be looking for a charger every 100 miles. I might get more relaxed about that when chargers improve but it won't help the journey time much.

If I can find rapid chargers in the right places then it takes an hour for an 80% charge*. Visiting my parents who live 170 miles away is usually a 7 hour round trip, set off with a fully charged Zoe and that's an extra 3 hours charging on top of the 7 hours driving. If I have my family with me then a 15 minute stop each way leaves me with an extra 2.5 hours journey time. Combine that with increased fuel cost plus extra meals in the services it is a very slow and expensive way to travel, probably on a par with taking a train.
If an EV advocate calculated the same journey they would say it's a single charge each way and would cost very little as I can recharge at my parents house, they would fail to mention that I have to drive at 20mph (or 30mph with no heating) to just make it.

I think GM was spot on when he said electric cars are fine as long as you never need to drive more than 50 miles from home.

* The marketing makes it sound like it would take an hour to lift the battery from 20% to 100% but unless it's changed that's bad for a battery, so in reality I'd be pulling in at 20% and charging up to 80% making my range between stops 80 miles. I'm also assuming I can do multiple fast charges in a day which I know some cars can't.

[slowsider]

it is a very slow and expensive way to travel, probably on a par with taking a train.

Tbh I think you've inadvertently implicated the revision we may have to make: longer journeys by other means, with EV s for local trips.