How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[The Spin Doctor]

"If you don't do my course then you'll probably have an accident" - "If you don't come to my seminar you probably won't get rich" - "If you don't do my management course you'll probably be a bad manager".

This is always the strategy of consultants that want to sell you something that usually isn't worth buying, there has to be an "if you don't..."

if you want to make a living from it then you'll need to be good at marketing and talking it up.

The trouble is that no amount of marketing is going to help when you have a preconceived idea about what it is I do, and don't actually want to read / listen / watch the marketing message.

Here's what I've written about my cornering courses:

"Ride4Fun COURSES -- one-or two-day courses
"The Performance: BENDS one-day course or the Performance: SPORT two-day course are our Ride4Fun courses, aimed at recreational riders. Opening up the enjoyment of the freedom that motorcycling brings, we'll develop your twisty road technique to a new level.

"Start with the basics - hazard perception, risk awareness and risk management.

"Add some machine control - steering, brakes and throttle.

"Then ride the right line - the unique blend of 'reference points', positioning and lines.

"Put together that's the Survival Skills 'Point & Squirt' system - a uniquely different approach to planned cornering."

I don't see anything about "having a crash" or "being a bad rider" if you don't take a course.

[Horse]

If you pay a nice man to follow you down roads that he knows really well then it's a given that afterwards (if he can communicate without being a knob) he will be able to give you tips to make you approach those roads better, I do it with my kid (unpaid of course) and he's better for it afterward

I posted a link to a 'Gooseneck'-like on-road bend. The reason that I used that bend on a particular session was because of the trainee's reasons for being with me. At the time of approaching and negotiating, she cursed me.

Amazingly, though, I didn't find that S bend by chance.

Training routes are selected for many attributes:
- Features appropriate to the session intention
- Features appropriate to the trainee's requirements
- Suitable stopping points for discussion
- Availability of facilities (toilets, refreshments, fuel)
- Suitable length for the time available
- Often circular, or linked

That's partly why trainers use routes they know - and have selected.

Also: your 'follow - comment' method is not training.

You're now emphasising, by simplification, exactly why external consultants may be beneficial.

[The Spin Doctor]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike. Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT. Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training! Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training. Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

Yes, you probably have - almost CERTAINLY have - REFINED those skills with more experience... but without the basic training to give you the underpinnings, it's a much tougher and longer job. I know that, because I taught myself to ride since there was no training option available at the time. I learned but it was accompanied by plenty of scraping noises and the occasional trip to hospital. One or two of the crashes I was lucky to survive.

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.



Post-test? Lots of riders go out in groups. But where can you get proper training in group riding? (Actually, with Survival Skills - I've offered group rider training for two decades )

[weeksy]

I do think I could improve my lines, but often they're kinda dictated by road conditions round here. As you're coming towards a corner you find a 2' wide ridge of gravel in it, if you're on the left of it, you're unlikely to cross it to get a better line.
But I guess arguably that's partly my fault due to where I live and ride

But seeing others and being told what to do doesn't necessarily mean I can or will do it, another weakness of mine for sure.

[Horse]

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

The DSA/DVSA carry the blame here, but as a result of the historic background of their main advisers. ie Roadcraft-informed - and constrained. And that wasn't maintained through lack of information, they took the attitude (read the blurb on their books) of 'we are the experts' and refused to consider alternatives and enhancements.

You may detect a hint of bitterness here? I spent a lot of time on this, including offering the opportunity for them to experience a totally different training regime where absolute novices were taught steering.

Also, they were aware (in about 2006) that only 1/3 instructors claimed any real understanding of countersteering- at the time when Mod1was being introduced.

[Horse]

I do think I could improve my lines, but often they're kinda dictated by road conditions round here. As you're coming towards a corner you find a 2' wide ridge of gravel in it, if you're on the left of it, you're unlikely to cross it to get a better line.
But I guess arguably that's partly my fault due to where I live and ride

But seeing others and being told what to do doesn't necessarily mean I can or will do it, another weakness of mine for sure.

If you want a short essay explaining 'positioning', either Spin or I could write one.

But it would kill the thread

[Noggin]

I was fully aware that when I did my test it only taught me how to ride a bike to pass the test, not how to actually ride a bike (although my instructor was really good and probably gave me more info than the test syllabus required).

As a former CBT / DAS instructor, I can categorically state that's simply not the case.

The skills you learn on a basic training course cover most of everything you'll ever do on a bike.

Ok. That's a maybe for me. (I had learnt to drive on the farm as a kid, so the car test is no comparison)

Bear in mind I took my test in about 1997 so things taught were a little different in someways, and didn't buy a bike until late 2002 so had to relearn after a 6 year gap

I did what was supposed to be a five day course to ride 600+ machines afterwards. I got 3.5 days training as I was ill for one day and the last day I had my test late morning!!

Can you operate the clutch and gears, use the throttle and brakes? You were taught that on CBT.

I can, but also I had a good understanding of how those things worked from driving cars, buses, tractors and so just needed to work out the levers instead of the pedals

Ridden in a town? You learned how on basic training!

I wheelied away from a junction turning right on a lean back style 125. Ok, I learnt that I 'dumped the clutch', but I wasn't taught how to control that better, I worked it out for myself, and on the four day long course, I just pulled away from everything incredibly slowly

Negotiated a roundabout? You were taught that on basic training.

I tried to negotiate a mini roundabout in Bristol with a drain cover on my 'line' - all I could hear in my head was "DRAIN COVERS ARE SLIPPERY" from all the people I'd talked to over the years and in trying to avoid it I ended up riding up the pavement looking for a gap in the parked cars to get back on the road

Ridden round a hairpin bend in the mountains? You were taught the skills round the cones on CBT.

Cones? No recollection of cones. We rode around a car park to make sure we could stay on the bike then went out on the road that afternoon. Closest I got to a hairpin was learning to do a U-Turn (badly) for my test - I definitely wasn't taught clutch control!!

It may not have been explicitly explained, but the CORE SKILLS are all learned with your basic instructor.

the absolute best thing for me was the second instructor (I had one for the 125 and a different one for the 500) explained countersteering.

But no, I don't think I came out of the training/test feeling 100% in control.

I may have learned core skills, but that just enabled me to ride the bike - they did not make me a safe rider!! Which is why I went for more training when I got a bike and continue to do so!!

And in my opinion, the training has got better. DAS teaches riders to deal with the weight and at least some of the power of the kind of machine they'll end up riding - I was instructing when DAS was introduced and it was a huge step forward in terms of the necessary machine control. We also had to up our game as instructors! And I think it produced better technically prepared riders (though there's arguably a problem with over-confidence). Compared with getting a test pass on a 11hp 125, riders have to work far harder to get a pass on the DAS bikes. With a good DAS pass in your pocket, you were most of the way to IAM standard back in 1997. It's no coincidence that the IAM have had to up their own game!

I agree that the test is far harder now, so hopefully better

My SDad took his bike test and it involved riding around the block where the instructor could see you for two of the four sides!! So things do of course improve!

But basic training is not perfect. CBT is totally inadequate as preparation for the road. And DAS still falls short in three areas.

- the off-road collision avoidance elements are totally divorced from reality. Few riders completing the swerve element of Mod 1 seem to be aware that it's a collision avoidance manoeuvre because they as simply dodging cones, whilst the e-stop becomes a game of beating the speed gun. And that explains why novice riders who in theory have the skills have little idea where, when and how to apply them.

- there's no motorway training - though this will be a tough fix as there are many parts of the country where there are no motorways to ride on!

- on-road fails to cover one very vital element. Cornering skills - including counter-steering - are woefully addressed.

Exactly - what is the point of core skills if you have no idea why you learnt them!!!

Post-test? Lots of riders go out in groups. But where can you get proper training in group riding? (Actually, with Survival Skills - I've offered group rider training for two decades )

Yes, I think you can - depending on the type of person you are and who you ride with


I do think further training is a really good idea, but I don't think I learnt to be safe on a bike on the road from taking my training and test!!! But maybe that's only one particularly bad experience and not the norm? (Although from talking to friends who took the test at a similar time, I think it was more usual than unusual!)

[The Spin Doctor]

The reason I don't buy into most of this advanced training is that you can't just slide experience into someone's brain

How do you think an airline pilot learns to fly? Do you think they say "take that Airbus up and stooge around till you're happy to carry some paying passengers"?

That was pretty much how it worked in 1940, but the airline industry has moved on a bit since then.

One of the constant comments post-training is "I hear your voice in my head as I ride"... so it would seem you CAN slide some experience into someone's brain.

[Horse]

How do you think an airline pilot learns to fly?

With 1,500hrs of practice before he's signed off.
Which is what I said.

How much practice with an instructor or accompanied by a training captain, how much in a simulator? How much learning from manuals, how much learning the checklists? Presumably you know to make that statement?

[The Spin Doctor]

How do you think an airline pilot learns to fly?

With 1,500hrs of practice before he's signed off.
Which is what I said.

But HOW is he gaining that practice? As I said, he's not simply handed a multi-million pound plane and told "take it up yourself and find out what it'll do", is he or she?

[The Spin Doctor]

Dunno, I googled it, ask spin, he's the one that bought it in as an argument against my assertion that it takes thousands of hours to train humans to do certain things.

No, I introduced pilot training because you said "you can't just slide experience into someone's brain".

Quite clearly, training allows you to do just that. But the more complex, the task, the longer the training procedure.

[Horse]

Dunno, I googled it, ask spin, he's the one that bought it in as an argument against my assertion that it takes thousands of hours to train humans to do certain things.

No, I introduced pilot training because you said "you can't just slide experience into someone's brain".

Quite clearly, training allows you to do just that. But the more complex, the task, the longer the training procedure.

Don't be daft. You learn to fly those things by osmosis, or following your mate as he flies another plane

[Noggin]

Over here the instructor is in a car following the bike

[Horse]

No, I introduced pilot training because you said "you can't just slide experience into someone's brain".

Quite clearly, training allows you to do just that. But the more complex, the task, the longer the training procedure.

If you could just slide the experience in then you wouldn't need 1,500hrs of training/experience.

Doesn't that depend on how much 'experience' there is, how quickly it can be slid and how thorough the checks are afterwards to ensure it's been delivered?

Change a battery in a torch: moments. Change the battery in your van: longer. Change the batteries in a Tesla?

[Horse]

Over here the instructor is in a car following the bike

That's obviously wrong because Horse and his mate say that you can't teach someone to fly an aeroplane by following them in another one.

Oh dear, struck a nerve? How often is that a pilot training technique?

Actually, i could hive you an example of jet pilots being coached by someone following in a car, if you'd like?

[Horse]

Over here the instructor is in a car following the bike

That's obviously wrong because Horse and his mate say that you can't teach someone to fly an aeroplane by following them in another one.

In other surprising news, I was taught to ride a horse by a lady that never shared the same horse I was on, sometimes she even rode alongside on another horse!

How about that!

I taught someone to get his knee down, but never done it myself. (And it wasn't by simply saying 'ride faster').

So come on, tell us more about this pilot training undertaken from another aircraft. Surely, if it's so commonplace, the first solo flight wouldn't be such a big deal?

[Horse]

Actually, i could hive you an example of jet pilots being coached by someone following in a car, if you'd like?

Struck a nerve? I'm sitting here laughing at you, you're both so desperate to sell your magical motorbike courses that you're plucking at straws and arguing about jet fighters and cars

See, we told you rider training wasn't always boring.

But you're stuck on your remote-controlled high horse

[Horse]

So come on, tell us more about this pilot training undertaken from another aircraft. Surely, if it's so commonplace, the first solo flight wouldn't be such a big deal?

No, I'd prefer to hear about why you're using this example of not being able to teach a man to fly a plane by following him in another one, as a pivotal point in your argument to sell me your particular brand of biking voodoo

I'm not selling anything. Where did you get that idea?

[Hot_Air]

I’m flummoxed: why does advanced training provoke heated debate?

I did it for similar reasons to those @weeksy gave for MTB training. My advanced training gave me some fun days out, I refined my riding (rewarding), and it’s enhanced my motorcycling enjoyment. What’s not to like?

In my track days, circuit instruction was similar and I got more out of my bike. And in my dirt biking phase, I did some training with a British motorcross champion and learnt loads. Advanced training was the same deal for my road riding.

Why wouldn’t I want a fresh set of eyes on my riding, especially if it’s going to involve a fun day out? I can use the tips that work for me (and ignore anything that doesn’t).

However, I will stress one thing I found from experience: not all advanced training is created equal. For instance, professional training from Rapid is nothing like amateur advice from the IAM.

[Dave@ERT]

I’ve been watching all this heated debate from a distance….genuinely bemused and by people’s anger towards post test training !!?? The above post by hot air sums it up perfectly….if you’re able to put your ego aside….what have you got to lose ?? I would agree that standards differ greatly and it’s important to do your homework and get the right training