the Game changer bikes

[KungFooBob]

Honda developed the SP1/2 to deliberately take advantage of the WBSK rules that had been designed to give Ducati the advantage.

[Mr. Dazzle]

And the TL?

[mangocrazy]

The LC wasn't a game changer, it was the last hurrah of the 2 stroke where Yamaha's 2 stroke engineers said "let's go out in style" The 250 in particular was responsible for much of the legislation that killed off the small capacity 2 stroke. If you're looking for 2 stroke game changers then the Yamaha YDS7 and YR5, Suzuki T250 and Kawasaki S3 really introduced the idea of a fast, light, small(ish) capacity 2 stroke that could out perform much larger capacity 4 strokes.

Yamaha (and Suzuki, and Kawasaki and Aprilia and even Honda) were still making two-strokes 15 years after the intoduction of the LC, so the LC was clearly the longest goodbye in history by your reckoning. The LC moved the two stroke game on in so many ways over the stuff that went before; liquid cooling (a big thing for seizure prone 2Ts), monoshock suspension (everything prior to that had been twin shocks), reduced weight and more power (a la Fireblade that you regard as a game changer) and cast ali wheels. It really was a quantum leap over what had gone before. I know; I was there. And the LC was far from the last hurrah of the 2T. The YPVS followed as an evolution of the LC, which in turn was followed by multiple iterations of the TZR. And that was only Yamaha. The LC actually invigorated a class that was quietly going to sleep.

Italian bikes generally don't have much of an effect on mainstream motorcycling. The Ducati 750SS and 916 were iconic but didn't generally move the direction of motorcycle development their way - nobody else developed a V twin supersport bike. All the italian manufacturers have spent the last 40 years lurching from takeover to bankrupcy to merger...

'Italian bikes generally don't have much of an effect on mainstream motorcycling.' Are you serious? The Italians are where the Japanese look to for their design and styling cues. And if the 916 didn't move direction their way why did Honda and Suzuki both produce big V-twins in the mid 90s? Have the TL1000S and R and the Firestorm passed you by? Were you sleeping when Colin Edwards beat Ducati to the WSB crown with a V-twin after years of Honda campaigning V4s? You're clearly being selective to the point of myopia.

Speed Triple- yes the CB750 and Z1 were big naked bikes, but most other bikes of their time were naked too. From the early 80s fairings had become more common and performance bikes in particular were expected to have a full fairing and clip ons, just like the race bikes they were emulating. The ST was the first of ther factory streetfighters, even though it was based on the least sporty of the litre sportsbikes. GSX1100G was far from a sportsbike with no fairings, it even had a shaft drive It wasn't too long before most manufacturers also offered a naked bike based (loosely) on their sportsbikes - Fazer, 900 Hornet, Z1000, Brutale, Monster, Tuono, SuperDuke...

It's called the ebb and flow of bike popularity. To try and suggest that a portly triple that lost its fairing was some kind of trailblazer of a new era is faintly ridiculous. All manufacturers had unfaired bikes in their line-up. They just weren't called 'nakeds' is all.

[Mr. Dazzle]

TBF I'm genuinely struggling to think of any bikes which changed things drastically. Bikes are too narrow a field really, its hard to come up with something that's radically different.

Cars are easier....Renault Espace, first people carrier. BMW X5, first premium 4x4 that didn't really bother trying to be an off roader thus launching the Chelsea tractor. Range Rover, first car that was both 4x4 and luxury. Tesla Model S, first proper 4 seat leccy car that wasn't a spazzy golf buggy. Before they came along the market segment they were in didn't really exist.

Before those people couldn't conceive that such a car would be successful. They changed the market and made everyone else copy them.

Like I said, I can't think of many bikes which have done that.

BMW GS maybe?

[Couchy]

TBF I'm genuinely struggling to think of any bikes which changed things drastically. Bikes are too narrow a field really, its hard to come up with something that's radically different.

Cars are easier....Renault Espace, first people carrier. BMW X5, first premium 4x4 that didn't really bother trying to be an off roader thus launching the Chelsea tractor. Range Rover, first car that was both 4x4 and luxury. Tesla Model S, first proper 4 seat leccy car that wasn't a spazzy golf buggy. Before they came along the market segment they were in didn't really exist.

Before those people couldn't conceive that such a car would be successful. They changed the market and made everyone else copy them.

Like I said, I can't think of many bikes which have done that.

BMW GS maybe?

The GS is a good call, of course it could just be called a sports tourer but the reality is it was the first adventure bike made for the road with proper handling and performance so yeah a game changer

[Bigjawa]

The Espace wasn't the first people carrier, Toyota had wee 8 seaters from about 1976, Mitsubishi from about 1982, the Espace was a Matra concept that Peugeot rejected so they went to Renault. It was a very, very interesting vehicle though. IIRC McLaren ran a few souped up V6 ones.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

TBF I'm genuinely struggling to think of any bikes which changed things drastically. Bikes are too narrow a field really, its hard to come up with something that's radically different.

Cars are easier....Renault Espace, first people carrier. BMW X5, first premium 4x4 that didn't really bother trying to be an off roader thus launching the Chelsea tractor. Range Rover, first car that was both 4x4 and luxury. Tesla Model S, first proper 4 seat leccy car that wasn't a spazzy golf buggy. Before they came along the market segment they were in didn't really exist.

Before those people couldn't conceive that such a car would be successful. They changed the market and made everyone else copy them.

Like I said, I can't think of many bikes which have done that.

BMW GS maybe?

The GS is a good call, of course it could just be called a sports tourer but the reality is it was the first adventure bike made for the road with proper handling and performance so yeah a game changer

The first GS is literally a BMW R80 with high level mudguard and silencers, a bigger petrol tank, different seat, spiked wheels and trail bike handlebars, it's a normal late 70s bike made to look like a trail bike, and it worked very well, a really nice bike to your on and surprisingly competent off road so long as your confident.

[Bigjawa]

The first GS is literally a BMW R80 with high level mudguard and silencers, a bigger petrol tank, different seat, spiked wheels and trail bike handlebars, it's a normal late 70s bike made to look like a trail bike, and it worked very well, a really nice bike to your on and surprisingly competent off road so long as your confident.

Wasn't there a slightly more road orientated one? ST or something?

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

LCs are game changers because they're so much higher quality than anything else available in 1980, the wiring on anything prior to the LC is like a brittle birds nest, the plastics weren't brittle, they were a very nice bike to own in 1980, the 250s competitors were the X7, KH250 and Superdream, all of which were pretty horrible to ride.

The 350 did 110 mph standard, faster than a GPZ550, and accelerated a lot quicker, you could spend £100 on getting one tuned and it would be faster than a 750, a decent set of expansion chambers and you'd have a similar top speed to a GS1000.

They really were amazing bikes in the early 80s, and it wasn't until 1985 that big four strokes caught up.

[Rockburner]

The first GS is literally a BMW R80 with high level mudguard and silencers, a bigger petrol tank, different seat, spiked wheels and trail bike handlebars, it's a normal late 70s bike made to look like a trail bike, and it worked very well, a really nice bike to your on and surprisingly competent off road so long as your confident.

Wasn't there a slightly more road orientated one? ST or something?

Yes, odd looking thing, I saw one being used as a commuter about 10 years ago now, when I was daily commuting West Sussex to Central London.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

The first GS is literally a BMW R80 with high level mudguard and silencers, a bigger petrol tank, different seat, spiked wheels and trail bike handlebars, it's a normal late 70s bike made to look like a trail bike, and it worked very well, a really nice bike to your on and surprisingly competent off road so long as your confident.

Wasn't there a slightly more road orientated one? ST or something?

From memory, there was the standard looking bike, the R80ST and a touring version with a huge fairing, the R80RT, if you ever look at buying an R80GS check it's a genuine GS, because it's possible to convert any 1980ish R80 to GS spec, though God knows what a genuine R80GS goes for now, I had a spin on one 20 years ago and was told it had cost £4K, more than I paid for a brand new DRZ400 at the time.

[Rockburner]

monoshock suspension (everything prior to that had been twin shocks),

The "unitrack" suspension was created in the 30s by Vincent.
(yes it used 2 shock units, but the basic idea was the same.)

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

monoshock suspension (everything prior to that had been twin shocks),

The "unitrack" suspension was created in the 30s by Vincent.
(yes it used 2 shock units, but the basic idea was the same.)

The LC isn't even the first Yamaha with monoshock, the DT175MX is earlier than the LC, and there are at least 3 years worth of competition off road bikes with Monocross before the LC.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I'm wrong the R80RT is different to the ST and GS, it has twin shocks and is based on the R80/7

Apparently the GS and ST have an R65 frame with a monolever rear end, R100 forks and the GS has a 21" front wheel, so contrary to me thinking it's a tarted up R80, it was a new bike partially made by using parts from other BMWs.

It probably saved BMWs motorcycle division.

[mangocrazy]

monoshock suspension (everything prior to that had been twin shocks),

The "unitrack" suspension was created in the 30s by Vincent.
(yes it used 2 shock units, but the basic idea was the same.)

The LC isn't even the first Yamaha with monoshock, the DT175MX is earlier than the LC, and there are at least 3 years worth of competition off road bikes with Monocross before the LC.

Quibble, quibble. Compared to its immediate road sports competition (X7, RD250/350/400, KH250/350/400) it was the first with a monoshock. I know Vincent did monoshock back in the antedeluvian period, but that isn't the point. It was the fact that the LC tied all the new stuff together in a modern, fresh-looking design that completely undercut the competition. And if you want to be pedantic, people like the late Derek Chittenden of Hejira fame were using monoshock trials and MX bikes well before even Yamaha introduced them.

[Bigjawa]

I'm wrong the R80RT is different to the ST and GS, it has twin shocks and is based on the R80/7

Apparently the GS and ST have an R65 frame with a monolever rear end, R100 forks and the GS has a 21" front wheel, so contrary to me thinking it's a tarted up R80, it was a new bike partially made by using parts from other BMWs.

It probably saved BMWs motorcycle division.

Aye, I was wondering cos my first RT was an 83 and it still had twin shocks and wire wheels.

I think the 45/65 frame was subtly different, you couldn't chop and change bits like you could on the 80/100.

[Horse]

I think the 45/65 frame was subtly different, you couldn't chop and change bits like you could on the 80/100.

R45/65 from roughly 79 - 83 had a smaller frame & tank. An RT fairing was available as an extra, but had no inner panels.

From 81 it got the plastic airbox, better brakes and an extra 5 bhp. There was also the R65LS, styled by the same guy who did Suzuki's Katana.

From 83, only an R65 available, based on the R80.

[demographic]

For me, almost everyone has mentioned their favourite bikes and most of them have been an incremental change to maybe 20 000 people.
Whatever game they changed wasn't that big a game really.

So I'm sticking with the Honda Cub/super cub 50/90 as I reckon it made a huge difference to more peoples lives.
It's not glamorous nor fast but I'd say was life changing to millions of people.

[Mr. Dazzle]

For me, almost everyone has mentioned their favourite bikes and most of them have been an incremental change to maybe 20 000 people.
Whatever game they changed wasn't that big a game really.

Well yeah...to me a game changer creates a part of the market which didn't exist before.

I think the Tesla Model S is the easiest to get your head around. Before the Model S you could buy electric cars and you could buy fast cars and luxury cars. You couldn't buy a fast, luxury electric car that didn't cost a few hundred K.

Tesla put it in on the market and then forced everyone else to up their game and start developing cars they previosuly had no immediate intention to develop...something most of them are still struggling with!

I can't think of many bikes which did that.

[Horse]

Well yeah...to me a game changer creates a part of the market which didn't exist before.

I think the Tesla Model S is the easiest to get your head around. Before the Model S you could buy electric cars and you could buy fast cars and luxury cars. You couldn't buy a fast, luxury electric car that didn't cost a few hundred K.

Tesla put it in on the market and then forced everyone else to up their game and start developing cars they previosuly had no immediate intention to develop...something most of them are still struggling with!

I can't think of many bikes which did that.

And the customers probably wouldn't buy? Is that the root of it?

Funny Front Ends? Nah, want forks, etc.

The most radical that bikes have been was shell-suit colour schemes and the current 'broken transformer toy' styling.

So far as radical goes, who led the superscooter evolution? Honda had a 250 on the 2000s, then there was the Burgman & TMax. Without them, there might not be the recent Hondas, including the 'adventure'* version.

* Get an unreliable bike, every trip has potential for adventure.