Nighttime ‘ghost jackets’ and the Science of Being Seen

[Hot_Air]

In the Science of Being Seen (SOBS), @The Spin Doctor talked about reflective jackets that create a human silhouette (significantly better than the odd reflective strip). Has someone at Macna been reading the SOBS? We have bike clobber along the lines @The Spin Doctor recommended: Magna Night Eye motorcycle clothing …

https://www.macna.com/en/search?q=Night%20eye

Also, some of Macna’s Night Eye pants have their reflectivity on the calves, precisely where a car behind’s headlights will illuminate them. It looks straight out of SOBS. Could it warrant a mention of Survival Skills’ Facebook page, perhaps?

[MrLongbeard]

Pffft, they're not even 2016/425

[The Spin Doctor]

Deffo worth a mention

I don't see CE approval for the jacket / trews either, though, just the armour... though as far as I know, 'old stock' can still be legally shifted.

[Hot_Air]

There’s no legal requirement for manufacturers to put the CE rating on their website (or online store). The CE label merely needs to be on the garment. In the age of internet shopping, it’s a critical failing of the latest CE regulations.

It’s frustrating because many people buy motorcycle gear online, without the opportunity to physically handle clothing to check if it’s A, AA or AAA rated.

In Macna’s case, it’s impossible to know online if their garments have an A-rating under EN17092. But then Rukka manages to bypass this standard and sell its latest clobber without an A-rating

[The Spin Doctor]

There’s no legal requirement for manufacturers to put the CE rating on their website (or online store). The CE label merely needs to be on the garment. In the age of internet shopping, it’s a critical failing of the latest CE regulations.

It’s frustrating because many people buy motorcycle gear online, without the opportunity to physically handle clothing to check if it’s A, AA or AAA rated.

In Macna’s case, it’s impossible to know online if their garments have an A-rating under EN17092. But then Rukka manages to bypass this standard and sell its latest clobber without an A-rating

However, most do now include it in the tech spec section. I assume that if they've gone to the trouble of confirming the armour is CE-approved and they HAVEN'T mentioned the rating of the garment, then it's likely it's NOT rated. And if I were the vendor I'd assume that's what people were assuming. I suppose an email could ask the question

[Hot_Air]

Whether a company includes the A-ratings on their website speaks volumes about the brand. For example, Dainese seems deliberately opaque. Good luck finding the A-rating for Dainese clothing (even my local Dainese retailer complains about it)! Perhaps the poor MotoCAP test results, and crap AA rating for many of its race leathers, are clues how seriously Dainese takes safety.

Alpinestars appears, well, disorganised. It has some of the very few gloves to achieve CE Level 2, and Astars has more Level 2 ratings for boots than I can shake a sock at. It often fails to mention these successes online, yet the brand can be transparent about a measly ‘A’ rating for some textiles. Bizzarro!

The British boutique brands (BKS Made-to-Measure and Hideout) far exceed AAA for all their clothing. It’s good to Buy British! But it’s a shame they have disappeared from bike magazine articles, doubtless because they don't pay for much advertising or give free clothing to journalists.

[McNab]

In the Science of Being Seen (SOBS), @The Spin Doctor talked about reflective jackets that create a human silhouette (significantly better than the odd reflective strip). Has someone at Macna been reading the SOBS? We have bike clobber along the lines @The Spin Doctor recommended: Magna Night Eye motorcycle clothing …

https://www.macna.com/en/search?q=Night%20eye

Also, some of Macna’s Night Eye pants have their reflectivity on the calves, precisely where a car behind’s headlights will illuminate them. It looks straight out of SOBS. Could it warrant a mention of Survival Skills’ Facebook page, perhaps?

It's taken a while to get to us. Cyclists have been wearing that stuff for years. I bought a cycle jacket to go over my bike jacket a few years back, to help make me a bit more viable on the dark wet nights, but mostly to keep me dry.

[Horse]

Probably / possibly due to difficulties making the material robust enough. I had a Weise jacket about 20 years ago that had retroreflective dots within panels of the exterior fabric.

[slowsider]

There's a risk that drivers associate them with cyclists and are surprised by the speed of m/c riders wearing them...

[Horse]

There's a risk that drivers associate them with cyclists and are surprised by the speed of m/c riders wearing them...

Apart from a 55w fugg off headlight at the front, and it's travelling faster than a cycle if approached from behind?

[The Spin Doctor]

Probably / possibly due to difficulties making the material robust enough. I had a Weise jacket about 20 years ago that had retroreflective dots within panels of the exterior fabric.

My Aerostich dates from 97, and whilst the retro-reflective is worn, it's not totally worn off - the big shoulder between the shoulders is worst.

The point is that I wore that suit every day for about 15 years, so it's had probably ten times more wear in that time than most riders will put into their kit.

[The Spin Doctor]

There's a risk that drivers associate them with cyclists and are surprised by the speed of m/c riders wearing them...

Apart from a 55w fugg off headlight at the front, and it's travelling faster than a cycle if approached from behind?

Have you checked the power output of a modern cycle headlight? "The Niterider 3600 Pro which shines with 3600 lumens is currently the brightest bike light (a typical car headlight produces about 1500 lumens). It sells for about $600... Note that the light’s beam is just too bright to use in an urban area, unless you greatly step down the intensity!"

Unless you feel that 'the brighter the better' arms race is the way to go.

https://reactual.com/outdoor-equipment- ... light.html

And a reasonably fit cyclist can hit 25-30 mph on the flat, which is moped speed. And downhill, they'll outpace virtually anything on a twisty road. My MTB topped out about about 50 mph before aerodynamics and rolling resistance of off-road tyres took over. It was enough to get me stopped for speeding descending after doing a Cat 1 climb ahead of the race at the Tour de France in the Pyrenees!

[slowsider]

There's a risk that drivers associate them with cyclists and are surprised by the speed of m/c riders wearing them...

Apart from a 55w fugg off headlight at the front, and it's travelling faster than a cycle if approached from behind?

If it quacks like a duck, people will assume it's a duck and plan accordingly until further evidence presents itself.

[Horse]

There's a risk that drivers associate them with cyclists and are surprised by the speed of m/c riders wearing them...

Apart from a 55w fugg off headlight at the front, and it's travelling faster than a cycle if approached from behind?

If it quacks like a duck, people will assume it's a duck and plan accordingly until further evidence presents itself.

From the front, a bright light (whether motorcycle or bicycle) will probably out-glow the jacket.

From the rear, it might be a concern if the bicyclist was mistaken for a motorcyclist, but not the other way - it will take longer for the approaching vehicle to catch up a motorcycle.

If the keen bicyclist is travelling faster then the time to contact will be longer, especially if the jacket meant that 'something' was identified earlier (albeit the driver might not immediately understand what).

[Hot_Air]

I suppose an email could ask the question

I asked, and Macna replied that all their clothing is CE-certified (EN 17092). The Fulcrum Night Eye trousers, which have ‘ghost’ reflectivity as per SOBS, only have an ‘A’ rating. Don’t fall off above 30mph in these pants, but at least drivers might see you in the dark!

Have a look at the photo. I’m wearing a conventional traffic vest with retro-reflective material around the upper back and up over the shoulders. I’m also wearing a riding suit which has two large patches of retro-reflective material on the back of the calves. The bike with the camera on is on dip beam. It’s that awkward twilight period after sunset but before full darkness. Which set of retro-reflective material shows up?



I’ll hazard a guess you spotted the retro-reflective panels on the lower legs before you noticed that the hi-vis vest also had reflective stripes.

[The Spin Doctor]

Macna replied that all their clothing is CE-certified (EN 17092). The Fulcrum Night Eye trousers, which have ‘ghost’ reflectivity as per SOBS, only have an ‘A’ rating. Don’t fall off above 30mph in these pants, but at least drivers might see you in the dark!

Thanks for that!

They should be OK for commuting.

[slowsider]

Apart from a 55w fugg off headlight at the front, and it's travelling faster than a cycle if approached from behind?

If it quacks like a duck, people will assume it's a duck and plan accordingly until further evidence presents itself.

From the front, a bright light (whether motorcycle or bicycle) will probably out-glow the jacket.

From the rear, it might be a concern if the bicyclist was mistaken for a motorcyclist, but not the other way - it will take longer for the approaching vehicle to catch up a motorcycle.

If the keen bicyclist is travelling faster then the time to contact will be longer, especially if the jacket meant that 'something' was identified earlier (albeit the driver might not immediately understand what).

The driver will 'immediately understand' it as a cyclist and having done so almost certainly make a plan to pass it. It's not the time to contact which is of concern it's the time exposed to danger, because once the plan to pass is made, its likely to be persevered with, and the manoeuvre will take longer to complete if its actually a motorcyclist.

'From the front' is moot. Emerging traffic will not illuminate the jacket.

[Horse]

'From the front' is moot. Emerging traffic will not illuminate the jacket.

Really? You have just overlooked probably the most serious SMIDSY situation.

[The Spin Doctor]

The driver will 'immediately understand' it as a cyclist and having done so almost certainly make a plan to pass it. It's not the time to contact which is of concern it's the time exposed to danger, because once the plan to pass is made, its likely to be persevered with, and the manoeuvre will take longer to complete if its actually a motorcyclist.

Errr... it'll take a LOT longer to catch unless it's a 28mph limited scooter on a rural road in which case, there's not a great deal of difference in passing time.

'From the front' is moot. Emerging traffic will not illuminate the jacket.

Yes... and no... in an urban environment there's always some light scatter from other sources, and the effect of these jackets is that they 'glow'. I agree you don't get the full retro-reflective effect that you do when they are directly illuminated in car lights, but they are surprisingly conspicuous under street lighting and light scatter from other headlights.

The first time I saw one was in exactly those circumstance, with me on the bike waiting to pull out, and I was amazed how much more visible they were than conventional retro-reflective clothing.

[Horse]

Yes... and no... in an urban environment there's always some light scatter from other sources, and the effect of these jackets is that they 'glow'. I agree you don't get the full retro-reflective effect that you do when they are directly illuminated in car lights, but they are surprisingly conspicuous under street lighting and light scatter from other headlights.

Which is an effect of them not being great retroflectors (compared to something like 3M DG3 microprismatic material).

I've seen one rider with LED 'enhanced' hi-viz. The effect was distinctly (or undistinctly) underwhelming.