Did a search and you've been lucky , one bloke lost two mounts. https://www.ktmforums.com/threads/broke ... nts.70265/
Tried JB weld, but that didn't work. Drilling and tapping seems to be an option. looking at the photos the crankcase definetly seems thick at that point and you could go a mm a time (use a depth stop). measure the distance to the other bit of the crankcase that is webbed. As Iansoday says your only going to need about 5mm and if you do slightly break into the gearbox so what, yes there is a bit of oil there but its not under high pressure and your going to be plugging it wuth a stud that you can thread lock in to seal.
Help! Crankcase breakage.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Thanks or finding that Paul. I wonder what age his RC8 was because his slave design is different. The 1190 Adv has only two mounting points not three. Though from his pic I can't see where the third is.
Another possibility has occurred to me and that's fabricating a new mounting point off the chain catcher. It's a substantial piece of high tensile steel plate about 3.5 mm thick that bolts onto the engine case and the plastic sprocket cover bolts onto that. A mounting off the catcher would not be visible. It's a cheap part at £17 and would avoid modifying any other part of the bike or drilling the crankcase.
I've ordered a replacement from Trevor Pope and I'll have to wait for that to arrive because the original was bent by the impact and it's extremely tough and difficult to straighten so I'll investigate when I've got the new one.
It did something though. It took a hell of a whack to distort it and there probably would have been carnage if it wasn't there.
Looking into the epoxy bonding, I think it doesn't work because once the casting is broken the surface of the exposed alloy starts to oxidise and that layer would need to be ground off for bonding to be effective, and that can't be done.
Another possibility has occurred to me and that's fabricating a new mounting point off the chain catcher. It's a substantial piece of high tensile steel plate about 3.5 mm thick that bolts onto the engine case and the plastic sprocket cover bolts onto that. A mounting off the catcher would not be visible. It's a cheap part at £17 and would avoid modifying any other part of the bike or drilling the crankcase.
I've ordered a replacement from Trevor Pope and I'll have to wait for that to arrive because the original was bent by the impact and it's extremely tough and difficult to straighten so I'll investigate when I've got the new one.
It did something though. It took a hell of a whack to distort it and there probably would have been carnage if it wasn't there.
Looking into the epoxy bonding, I think it doesn't work because once the casting is broken the surface of the exposed alloy starts to oxidise and that layer would need to be ground off for bonding to be effective, and that can't be done.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
It's not only that, the tensile strength of epoxy is nowhere near that of alloy. It just wouldn't be strong enough.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1955 Francis Barnett Cruiser 75.
1952 Norton ES2
1955 Francis Barnett Cruiser 75.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Above and slightly to the right is a torx bolt. Check its only holding the cases together. Take it out, get a 10mm longer one.
Get a piece of 10mm rectangular ally, drill a hole in it so that the longer torx bolt goes through it. measure the distance to the center of the broken boss.
Drill and tap a second hole that distance away from the first, bolt the slave to that.
You'll need a little round spacer to fill the area where the original torx bolt head is so you can bolt your spacer down tight.
Does that make sense?
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
That screw and the clutch oil jet below it which is gouged sit right behind where the chain runs on the sprocket so it's very tight. Big Red suggested using the clutch cover screws to the left for a flying bracket.
However, today I was playing with the (bent) chain catch plate and I realised - didn't look when I took it off because it was covered in chain shite - that the clutch push rod passes through the catch plate and it is the catch plate not the slave that is in contact with the broken pillar and its mate. The slave then goes against the catch plate and both are held in place by the slave bolts screwing into the pillars.
I actually don't think the chain touched the broken pillar. In theory the flailing chain stays behind the catch plate and so the delicate slave is protected but because the plate is screwed into those threaded pillars they take all the forces when the catch plate twists from the impact of the chain. It's a bad design really. A chain catcher should be bolted to the chassis not an engine casing because if it does have to do its job it's transferring a hell of a lot of shock onto a fragile alloy casting. KTM have form for doing this. The side stand is also bolted to the crankcase. Not great on an off-road capable adventure bike if you twat your side stand against a rock.. After-market stand relocators are available which fix the stand to the frame. Something similar is needed with the chain catch plate. Chains shouldn't be snapping but if they do there shouldn't be a risk of writing off the crankcases.
Anyway, the catch plate has two separate fixings, one of which is into the frame, as well as the two pillars (now one) it shares with the slave. It's a very rigid piece of plate and I reckon I can just ignore the broken pillar, and hold the top slave bolt against the back of the plate with a nylock nut.
If you're not familiar with this particular bike all that is probably hard to visualise. But when the new parts arrive I will have a play and post up some pics.
However, today I was playing with the (bent) chain catch plate and I realised - didn't look when I took it off because it was covered in chain shite - that the clutch push rod passes through the catch plate and it is the catch plate not the slave that is in contact with the broken pillar and its mate. The slave then goes against the catch plate and both are held in place by the slave bolts screwing into the pillars.
I actually don't think the chain touched the broken pillar. In theory the flailing chain stays behind the catch plate and so the delicate slave is protected but because the plate is screwed into those threaded pillars they take all the forces when the catch plate twists from the impact of the chain. It's a bad design really. A chain catcher should be bolted to the chassis not an engine casing because if it does have to do its job it's transferring a hell of a lot of shock onto a fragile alloy casting. KTM have form for doing this. The side stand is also bolted to the crankcase. Not great on an off-road capable adventure bike if you twat your side stand against a rock.. After-market stand relocators are available which fix the stand to the frame. Something similar is needed with the chain catch plate. Chains shouldn't be snapping but if they do there shouldn't be a risk of writing off the crankcases.
Anyway, the catch plate has two separate fixings, one of which is into the frame, as well as the two pillars (now one) it shares with the slave. It's a very rigid piece of plate and I reckon I can just ignore the broken pillar, and hold the top slave bolt against the back of the plate with a nylock nut.
If you're not familiar with this particular bike all that is probably hard to visualise. But when the new parts arrive I will have a play and post up some pics.
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millemille
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Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Why? Ducati have been doing it on every one of their bikes for the last 40 or more years......
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Well the new parts arrived (Trevor Pope got everything to me within seven days. Fair play to them in current circumstances. KTM parts supply is apparently working normally).
Fitted the new chain protect plate (as KTM call it) and knocked up a little flying bracket out of 2.5 mm plate using the clutch cover screw that Big Red suggested. The new bracket ducks behind the protector plate directly over the sheered off pillar. The slave bolt will go through the protector and be tightened against the back of the bracket with a nut. I hope.. If I can get a spanner in there.
The bracket was a bit of a fiddle to make. Took two attempts and a lot of trial and error. It's not perfect. When the bracket and the chain protect are screwed up tight the bracket should be snug against the back of the protector but there's about 1/2 mm gap which I'll have to take up with a washer. If it's too awkward to get a spanner on a loose nut I'll have to weld a captive thread to the back of the bracket. I need to check that I will be able to hold a loose nut when the sprocket and chain is in place, in case I ever need to do an emergency slave replacement. It's no good if I can't fit a new slave without removing the sprocket. If not then again it'll need a captive thread. I supposed I could weld a stub of round bar and drill it and tap it. If so I could push the stub right through the bracket and use it to take out that 1/2 mm gap. But if it works I'll ride it as it is for now and have a strip down in the winter.
I've since painted the bracket black but when I got it perfectly fitted, and if it works OK, I'll get an engineering shop to make a replica in stainless. I don't think it's actually going to be visible when the sprocket cover is back on. But behind the sprocket cover is a water trap so I'd rather have stainless.
DSC_0125
Here's another pic with the clutch slave base plate in position.
DSC_0126
Fitted the new chain protect plate (as KTM call it) and knocked up a little flying bracket out of 2.5 mm plate using the clutch cover screw that Big Red suggested. The new bracket ducks behind the protector plate directly over the sheered off pillar. The slave bolt will go through the protector and be tightened against the back of the bracket with a nut. I hope.. If I can get a spanner in there.
The bracket was a bit of a fiddle to make. Took two attempts and a lot of trial and error. It's not perfect. When the bracket and the chain protect are screwed up tight the bracket should be snug against the back of the protector but there's about 1/2 mm gap which I'll have to take up with a washer. If it's too awkward to get a spanner on a loose nut I'll have to weld a captive thread to the back of the bracket. I need to check that I will be able to hold a loose nut when the sprocket and chain is in place, in case I ever need to do an emergency slave replacement. It's no good if I can't fit a new slave without removing the sprocket. If not then again it'll need a captive thread. I supposed I could weld a stub of round bar and drill it and tap it. If so I could push the stub right through the bracket and use it to take out that 1/2 mm gap. But if it works I'll ride it as it is for now and have a strip down in the winter.
I've since painted the bracket black but when I got it perfectly fitted, and if it works OK, I'll get an engineering shop to make a replica in stainless. I don't think it's actually going to be visible when the sprocket cover is back on. But behind the sprocket cover is a water trap so I'd rather have stainless.
DSC_0125 Here's another pic with the clutch slave base plate in position.
DSC_0126Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
You appear to have a chunk of broken chain link wedged in behind the black thing in the middle of the picture as well, which could support the notion that it was a shit chain. As for the 'loose' sprocket, it's not unknown for them to work slightly loose as there's no 'give' in the assembly when they're tightened up. That's why you fit a tab washer.
Anyhoo, tough luck. I don't think any sort of 'dab-on' solution is going to hold that clutch post on, they have limited structural strength and are likely to just pull off, which could then lead to the other post breaking as well. I'm struggling to think of a solution that doesn't involve stripping the engine, and all I can think of just now is an aluminium "soldering" process that seems to be moderately strong - if you can get the cases clean enough and build it up a bit it might hold.
https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/ ... ods-100868
Anyhoo, tough luck. I don't think any sort of 'dab-on' solution is going to hold that clutch post on, they have limited structural strength and are likely to just pull off, which could then lead to the other post breaking as well. I'm struggling to think of a solution that doesn't involve stripping the engine, and all I can think of just now is an aluminium "soldering" process that seems to be moderately strong - if you can get the cases clean enough and build it up a bit it might hold.
https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/ ... ods-100868
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
I tried to fit the slave today and there's no way you can get a spanner onto a loose nut on the back of the bracket I made. So I made bracket mk 3 with a cube of 1/2" flat welded to the back which I drilled and tapped to create a captive thread. Got the amount of off-set right this time too.
DSC_0131
Funny you should mention the piece of broken link. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't twig what it was until I fitted and bled the slave and realised something was binding. The piece of link was fouling against the clutch oil jet casting and preventing the slave from depressing the push-rod properly. Once removed everything worked perfectly.
I had the slave on, bled it and I've got a perfect clutch with all fixings solid and no flexing. No need to try and bond the broken piece. Just etch-primed the bracket, give in a coat of black tomorrow and I can reassemble.
Just need a new chain and sprocket set then and I'm back on the road.
DSC_0131 Funny you should mention the piece of broken link. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't twig what it was until I fitted and bled the slave and realised something was binding. The piece of link was fouling against the clutch oil jet casting and preventing the slave from depressing the push-rod properly. Once removed everything worked perfectly.
I had the slave on, bled it and I've got a perfect clutch with all fixings solid and no flexing. No need to try and bond the broken piece. Just etch-primed the bracket, give in a coat of black tomorrow and I can reassemble.
Just need a new chain and sprocket set then and I'm back on the road.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
The tab washer was properly bent over and holding the nut in place. It couldn't have turned by itself as it was. When I put the socket and breaker bar on the nut I let go of the bar briefly while I reached over to push the back brake on. The nut started to turn clockwise (doing itself up..) just from the weight on the breaker bar. It wasn't even finger tight and the tab washer had been hammered over. He'd forgotten to torque it up.
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Big Red
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Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Gimlet wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 4:57 pm I tried to fit the slave today and there's no way you can get a spanner onto a loose nut on the back of the bracket I made. So I made bracket mk 3 with a cube of 1/2" flat welded to the back which I drilled and tapped to create a captive thread. Got the amount of off-set right this time too.
Funny you should mention the piece of broken link. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't twig what it was until I fitted and bled the slave and realised something was binding. The piece of link was fouling against the clutch oil jet casting and preventing the slave from depressing the push-rod properly. Once removed everything worked perfectly.
I had the slave on, bled it and I've got a perfect clutch with all fixings solid and no flexing. No need to try and bond the broken piece. Just etch-primed the bracket, give in a coat of black tomorrow and I can reassemble.
Just need a new chain and sprocket set then and I'm back on the road.
Result
Was pretty sure you could carry out a usable repair with a supporting bracket of other bolts.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
Might be me just been old fashioned but just doesn’t seem rightmillemille wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 8:44 amWhy? Ducati have been doing it on every one of their bikes for the last 40 or more years......
Have a Ducati tooRe: Help! Crankcase breakage.
It's perfectly fine on a road bike. The issue with KTM is that they've done it on big heavy, powerful and properly off-road capable adventure bikes. Spills are inevitable on such bikes it they get used as intended. Drop your 1190R in the middle of Utah or the Australian bush and smack your side stand into a rock and you'll be wishing you'd stayed in Hertfordshire where there's a phone signal.
Re: Help! Crankcase breakage.
All done and back on the road.
Mk 3 bracket fitted today, sexy new Z-VMX DID chain and JT sprockets fitted, new chain guides, new sprocket cover. Everything reassembled and whole bike given a deep clean.
Went for a run to the seaside. Clutch works perfectly and the bracket is invisible when everything's back together. Feels so nice and smooth having a decent chain fitted.
My imitation DID riveting tool worked perfectly and it was a doddle to fit. Even found the wheel alignment was spot-on after setting the chain tension just by counting the thread visible on the adjuster bolts and getting them both the same. Usually there's some fannying required to get them right as the markings on the swinging arm aren't accurate.
All in all, chuffed and it was damn good to get out on it again.
I have noticed that the undertray beneath the seat has taken a clout from the broken chain and has a chunk out of it just behind the subframe tube directly above the chain run. It must have whip-lashed and hit the undertray. It's not critical or particularly noticeable but I'll get a new one. The chain guard should have stopped the chain getting right up there (very close to my arse. If I'd had a pillion their foot would have been hit by the chain). Obviously a flexible plastic chain guard does fuck all except catch lube fling-off. It wasn't broken so the chain must have simply have pushed it aside.
But other than that all is good.
DSC_0135 (1)
DSC_0136
DSC_0137
DSC_0138
Mk 3 bracket fitted today, sexy new Z-VMX DID chain and JT sprockets fitted, new chain guides, new sprocket cover. Everything reassembled and whole bike given a deep clean.
Went for a run to the seaside. Clutch works perfectly and the bracket is invisible when everything's back together. Feels so nice and smooth having a decent chain fitted.
My imitation DID riveting tool worked perfectly and it was a doddle to fit. Even found the wheel alignment was spot-on after setting the chain tension just by counting the thread visible on the adjuster bolts and getting them both the same. Usually there's some fannying required to get them right as the markings on the swinging arm aren't accurate.
All in all, chuffed and it was damn good to get out on it again.
I have noticed that the undertray beneath the seat has taken a clout from the broken chain and has a chunk out of it just behind the subframe tube directly above the chain run. It must have whip-lashed and hit the undertray. It's not critical or particularly noticeable but I'll get a new one. The chain guard should have stopped the chain getting right up there (very close to my arse. If I'd had a pillion their foot would have been hit by the chain). Obviously a flexible plastic chain guard does fuck all except catch lube fling-off. It wasn't broken so the chain must have simply have pushed it aside.
But other than that all is good.
DSC_0135 (1) DSC_0136 DSC_0137DSC_0138-
Dodgy69
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cheb
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