Tyre trackday debates. Mmmm

[weeksy]

Yesterday I was chatting with a couple of guys who basically said "the newer slicks make a massive difference on track, like 1-2s a lap quicker, just loads of grip"

I was debating whether we should grab a pair for the zx6r for summer. Admittedly we've got 2 pairs of spare track/road based tyres, but they'll all get used eventually

So, maybe we should just lob a set on and see what the wife makes of them.

http://www.cambriantyres.co.uk/performa ... ay-slicks/

[Yorick]

Slicks feel different to treaded race tyres. And warm up slower if you haven't got tyre warmers.

On cold days racers have grooves cut into slicks to keep the heat in.

[G.P]

Sounds like a way of spending more money than necessary and then not being able to go back as they "Feel nice".
You, me, Ceri and plenty of others could all go 5 secs a lap quicker on 'normal' tyres by getting tuition to ride a bike properly...

I remember seeing Rich Llewelyn instructing at a TD at Castle Combe on a Ducati ST4 with Pirelli Angels on it...

[Nobby]

Throwing a tyre with more grip on a Bike will only show up deficiencies elsewhere in the chassis/suspension set up.

[weeksy]

Throwing a tyre with more grip on a Bike will only show up deficiencies elsewhere in the chassis/suspension set up.

Who says it has any?

[Noggin]

I didn't go to slicks for a long time as a really good friend and ex (fairly high level) racer, he taught me to ride fast on the road) kept telling me I wasn't fast enough. I think I was on SuperCorsa somethings for a while but wasn't keen how they felt, Just didn't feel 'right'

Then I had the suspension done at Cadwell and just before that trip, someone I met at Cartagena had sent me a pair of slicks (I know, I am still not sure why but he said I was fast enough and would be happier on slicks)

So I went out with an instructor on the new suspension and loved it. After that session he told me to 'bloody put the slicks on'. So at lunchtime I got the wheels swapped and on went the slicks.

Next session, well damn. The bike had already changed in handling because of the suspension set up (changed for the much better). But wow the slicks felt different again. They helped when I braked. They seemed to 'sit down and throw me forward' when I accelerated. And I had WAY more confidence in them within the first couple of laps


I went out with the same instructor that afternoon. I gained (lost?) 2 or 3 seconds. I know that sounds daft but I wasn't exactly fast. But he had timed me in the morning and again in the afternoon - I didn't know he was timing me, so to be told that a change of tyres could make that much difference was amazing (especially as I wasn't, and still am not, knowledgeable on tyres). He had also given me stuff to practice that would help so probably wasn't 100% the tyres!!


So from my own experience, get a set and see if she likes them.


If I have a road/trackbike again I'd stick with road tyres and/or something like the Supercorsas (but will find something I like better)

If I end up with a dedicated trackbike again I'll have wets and slicks. I'm never going to be the fastest and will almost certainly never get into the fast group. But slicks gave me sooooo much more feel, acceleration, braking help, lean angle and confidence that I would want to play with them for sure


Oh - I also went from tiptoe on both feet to tip of one boot when I went up to slicks!! Who knew they would be so tall?? (I know - all of you knew they'd be taller!!)

[MingtheMerciless]

A work colleague who is pretty tidy on his very prepped 999 and does a lot of track days relates the tale of one track day where he asked the fast group instructor for tips. Said instructor (on a stock blade) came past him and looked over his shoulder gesturing to follow him, then way past his normal braking point into a corner, the instructor looked over his shoulder pointed at the line my work colleague was to follow and proceeded to show him the way round. Afterwards my colleague and his mates were picking over the instructors bike and asking him questions about setup and when asked what special tyres he was running, Mr S Crafer replied he’d dug them out of the tyreskip the day before as the didn’t look too bad!

[Nobby]

Throwing a tyre with more grip on a Bike will only show up deficiencies elsewhere in the chassis/suspension set up.

Who says it has any?

If it hasn't any , then you're no going fast enough.

[weeksy]

Throwing a tyre with more grip on a Bike will only show up deficiencies elsewhere in the chassis/suspension set up.

Who says it has any?

If it hasn't any , then you're no going fast enough.

Sure.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Noggin....I wonder how much of your experience was down to them being slick vs them being a different shape, construction etc. Your final comment about reaching the ground shows the difference.

I suppose its a moot point. Can you get 'slick construction' with tread? Slicks will be stiffer and strong just to cope with the higher fkrces goes through them, presumably they're built with a super racey profile too.

[Noggin]

Noggin....I wonder how much of your experience was down to them being slick vs them being a different shape, construction etc. Your final comment about reaching the ground shows the difference.

I suppose its a moot point. Can you get 'slick construction' with tread? Slicks will be stiffer and strong just to cope with the higher fkrces goes through them, presumably they're built with a super racey profile too.

It's possible. I had had road tyres that made the bike really tall before that, but the ones I had been using immediately before weren't the same shape at all

So yes, it could have been the shape. But for the Instructor telling me to put slicks on, I'd happily agree. If all slicks have the same/similar shape, that could have been part of his reasoning?

To qualify a bit - the slicks weren't the 'go superfast to keep the heat in' ones. They were slick and you did have to keep them hot. But the guy that sent them to me said there were different levels of them (he sold tyres!!) and sent some that weren't 'starter' ones but weren't the ones that needed the rider to be super fast. Shame I have no idea what they were!!

[Couchy]

A set of sports touring tyres will lap as quick as anyone in inters, they will warm up quick and dont need warmers, in the wet they will also lap as quick as anyone in the group. They are far more suited to the pace of the lower groups. Slicks when they go cold at a slower pace offer less grip than the road tyre, pointless tbh.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

What Couchy said is true, but I prefer the stiffness of a treaded race tyre to road tyre, but they're bloody horrible in the wet.

[singlesman]

As has been indicated above above, slicks are only going to be worth seconds a lap if you’re already reaching the limitations of whatever tyres you have on there, otherwise your probably going to be running similar or slower lap times on a more difficult to manage tyre.
Maybe one of the new ‘track-day’ specific slicks would be a good place to start.

[Tarmacsurfer]

Slicks when they go cold at a slower pace offer less grip than the road tyre, pointless tbh.

Agree. I used slicks for a few years in SoT racing and you need to run them hard straight out the gate. Once you get used to it then it's no big issue.
The other thing is that you'll need to make suspension changes due to the stiffer sidewall.

[scottyuk]

I run mid to high in Inters. I used trackday slicks (not race slicks as they're a different animal) for a few years. The profile was the big change I noticed from sport road tyres. I also dabbled with SC's and just noticed the money disappearing faster without the advantage I expected. Maybe just too much tyre for me??

I moved onto Continental RaceAttack (Endurance compound). I use them with warmers to make get most out of my time on track (i.e. don't waste the first lap or two) but you don't need to. I've had my GSXR1000 pegs scraping etc and they're confidence-inspiring. They handle the power I have at hand.

They have just stopped making them and I already have the replacements ready to go on : Conti RaceAttack 2 Street. Same deal but slight improvements on dry grip, mileage and handling apparently. Do they look less racey when lined up in the pitlane than slicks? Yes. Have they made any difference to the riding at my level? No and I'm quids in .... plus it's an excuse in the pocket

There is the argument that by using these I may be closer to their limit than I would be on more racey rubber and hence clumsy mistakes might not be tolerated so much. I think to get that extra margin you would need to be really pushing on and ensuring they're really up to temp. Maybe it's a valid argument but I believe most people have more tyre than they can use.

It's 99% a mind thing anyway. I know a fast rider could take by bike around quicker on the same tyres so they're not the limiting factor.

Weeksy - the tyres may be 1-2 secs quicker but can normal riders exploit that and secondly does it really matter if it's just about fun?

[Noggin]

I run mid to high in Inters. I used trackday slicks (not race slicks as they're a different animal) for a few years. The profile was the big change I noticed from sport road tyres. I also dabbled with SC's and just noticed the money disappearing faster without the advantage I expected. Maybe just too much tyre for me??

I moved onto Continental RaceAttack (Endurance compound). I use them with warmers to make get most out of my time on track (i.e. don't waste the first lap or two) but you don't need to. I've had my GSXR1000 pegs scraping etc and they're confidence-inspiring. They handle the power I have at hand.

They have just stopped making them and I already have the replacements ready to go on : Conti RaceAttack 2 Street. Same deal but slight improvements on dry grip, mileage and handling apparently. Do they look less racey when lined up in the pitlane than slicks? Yes. Have they made any difference to the riding at my level? No and I'm quids in .... plus it's an excuse in the pocket

There is the argument that by using these I may be closer to their limit than I would be on more racey rubber and hence clumsy mistakes might not be tolerated so much. I think to get that extra margin you would need to be really pushing on and ensuring they're really up to temp. Maybe it's a valid argument but I believe most people have more tyre than they can use.

It's 99% a mind thing anyway. I know a fast rider could take by bike around quicker on the same tyres so they're not the limiting factor.

Weeksy - the tyres may be 1-2 secs quicker but can normal riders exploit that and secondly does it really matter if it's just about fun?

I don't disagree with any of that. Actually I probably agree with it.

What I will say is that it is definitely a mind thing. The slicks I had were probably track day no race versions but the confidence they inspired for handling - braking, accelerating, turning; everything!! - was pretty incredible. I don't think the physical tyres were the reason I went faster. The reason was I was 100% confident in them. With the previous tyres I'd been about 95% (maybe less TBF).

For me tyres and how they feel make more difference than anything else I found. I didn't spend loads, I didn't know much about them, I took advice from people who had seen me ride (the guy saying I would be too slow for slicks actually hadn't seen me ride at that point. We met for a TD at Mallory and I surprised/shocked him by going round the outside of a couple of people at Gerrard's - after that he totally agreed with the change!).

But it's all subjective/personal as Everyone is different! How a person rides and what makes them comfortable on the bike/track

I was taught to ride at stupid speeds on the road on a bike that wasn't supposed to go round corners (a Blackbird). So I just ride what I've got. The only thing that made so much difference was tyres. Even the suspension change didn't do as much. It was amazing but to have the tyre change the next day meant I could compare directly. Tyres made far more difference - to me

I don't think anyone can tell whether tyres will make a difference to them until they try??

[Dave@ERT]

There’s few people doing trackdays that will ever really be consistently finding the limits of decent road/sports tyres. To actually get the extra benefit of slicks you seriously need to be pushing on. Take a look at the fastest laps from a recent club race....and then compare your lap times on a trackday....and if you’re not getting close then you’re not going to get any benefit from slicks. Treaded tyres can actually be quicker for many, as they warm up faster and usually give more feel and feedback than slicks.

[weeksy]

There’s few people doing trackdays that will ever really be consistently finding the limits of decent road/sports tyres. To actually get the extra benefit of slicks you seriously need to be pushing on. Take a look at the fastest laps from a recent club race....and then compare your lap times on a trackday....and if you’re not getting close then you’re not going to get any benefit from slicks. Treaded tyres can actually be quicker for many, as they warm up faster and usually give more feel and feedback than slicks.

Isn't that a bit like saying "what's the point doing tyre pressures" or "why bother getting the suspension setup", if you're not at the limit then it doesn't matter..

But of course it does matter, because 'better' can simply be better. An improvement in something like tyres would automatically have the potential to make someone feel more confident and therefore go faster ?

[Dave@ERT]

No, I don’t think it is the same. Using sports treaded tyres that will keep their temperature and offer a lot more feel and feedback makes a lot more sense than fitting tyres that are unsuitable. If you’re not riding reasonably quickly on slicks they won’t actually be as good, let alone offer any advantage. If, as an example, someone is lapping 10 to 20 seconds a lap off a fast club time (which isn’t unusual on trackdays) they’ll get far more benefit from a good sports/sports touring tyre.