E-bike motors and the arms race of power !!

[weeksy]

Was reading today about the new update for the Specialized Sworks Gen4 and 115nm of power and 999w of max

Obviously the DJI motor'd bikes are 1000w

But really... is all this just a bit ridiculous ?
Especially if we assume the 16mph restrictions are staying in place as it just means you get to 16mph slightly quicker before it cuts out.

But even if you have removed the speed cut-out limit then really, do you NEED that sort of performance/power ?

I'm giving consideration to an Eeb when we move to FoD but it'll be the Bosch SX motor with 55-60Nm and a lighter weight (likely the Mondraker Sly at the moment). But i don't want to blast up everything at 20mph, it's more because at times my wonky knee won't let me ride properly...

Where does it end though, more power, more watts, bigger batteries....

[crust]

It opens up more routes to eebs, steeper, longer, more technical.

You don't see this aspect of eebing because it can't be replicated so easily on a manual, climbing steep or very steep routes. When you go to FOD for you, it's all about the 'down' on a full fat ebike it could be all about the up, except they haven't built those routes, yet or maybe never because it would be eeb only.

When I go to Sulham or even parts of Woodcote on the rail (not that often I;ll grant you) I like to find the steepest climbs, thats where the power comes in useful.

[weeksy]

It opens up more routes to eebs, steeper, longer, more technical.

You don't see this aspect of eebing because it can't be replicated so easily on a manual, climbing steep or very steep routes. When you go to FOD for you, it's all about the 'down' on a full fat ebike it could be all about the up, except they haven't built those routes, yet or maybe never because it would be eeb only.

When I go to Sulham or even parts of Woodcote on the rail (not that often I;ll grant you) I like to find the steepest climbs, thats where the power comes in useful.

They have one at FoD, it's called the impossible climb, just of the main fire-road. It's insanely tough according to the boy. I'll be honest though, i don't really get the tech climb in truth.

[Ditchfinder]

Hopefully the spin off from super powerful motors will be tech improvements that can be applied to smaller lighter less powerful ones.

Those big motors are going to need bigger batteries too so there will be a push to get those lighter or come up with a fast charging solution.

My shimano ep6100 on full power and full assist couldn't drag me up a grassy climb on the side of Pendle Hill but the motor wasn't the problem, it was a lack of grip because the delivery was all or nothing. It really needs something that could help transition from walk assist level up to the full assist just to give you time to get feet on the pedals and balanced on the bike.

All the times I've had to use the walk assist there have been sections that I could have ridden if I could have gotten going in a more controlled way. Some of that is down to my fitness and ability but I'm not rubbish and only a bit overweight.

[weeksy]

The Bosch SX is really a lovely lovely motor, in terms of Eeb performance for me it's a game changer, there's enough, but not bonkers power, it's a MTB on steroids rather than the incredible hulk
Every sodding time i think of buying an Eeb though i look on forums and it's just problem after issue after problem after issue, new motors, new battery, electrical issues.... I just can't be doing with that.

[Mussels]

The law is a bit fuzzy on this, it looks clear:

must have a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

But in reality that's quite meaningless in an electric motor, however if the manufacturer claims 1KW then a court is likely to take that at face value. I wouldn't want to risk it somewhere there may be an accident and an insurance claim.

[weeksy]

The law is a bit fuzzy on this, it looks clear:

must have a ‘continuous rated power’ output of no more than 250 watts

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

But in reality that's quite meaningless in an electric motor, however if the manufacturer claims 1KW then a court is likely to take that at face value. I wouldn't want to risk it somewhere there may be an accident and an insurance claim.

that seems to be completely ignored now. I'm not sure how, or indeed why, but that simply doesn't seem to exist.

[mboy]

It's horses for courses isn't it... I know a few people now with AmFlow's or other bikes with the DJI Avinox motor, and they've pretty much all turned down the settings in every mode so that they can get better run time and they don't need all of the power. But, if as @crust said, you're the kind of rider that goes out and seeks technical uphill challenges far more so than the typical kind of spin up the fireroads and hammer the descents rider that I know I am and it sounds like you are @weeksy , then they definitely have their appeal.

For me, I'm more interested in riding on a level playing field with my mates more than the actual output of the motor most of the time to be honest. If I'm significantly undergunned then it's going to be hard work keeping up. That said, for 90mins or so I can usually just about keep up on my SX bike with them on full fats, but my 400Wh battery will be almost spent by that point and I'll be blowing out of my arse too... On my CX bike, obviously that's not an issue. But then when I'm riding with other friends who even on their full power bikes, either aren't as fit or just generally climb in lower power modes and/or at a little more sociable pace anyway, I can keep up on my SX bike for longer (until the battery runs out again)...

As for which is more fun...? Well, on the kind of trails I prefer, in isolation the SX motor is more fun to ride because it feels more rewarding, and you kinda have to ride it like you stole it if that makes sense...? But lightweight/half fat/SL eBikes are kinda like the modern equivalent of singlespeeds, because they definitely have their own pace that they need riding at that often doesn't coincide with anything else!

[mboy]

The Bosch SX is really a lovely lovely motor, in terms of Eeb performance for me it's a game changer, there's enough, but not bonkers power, it's a MTB on steroids rather than the incredible hulk
Every sodding time i think of buying an Eeb though i look on forums and it's just problem after issue after problem after issue, new motors, new battery, electrical issues.... I just can't be doing with that.

Issues with the SX specifically...? Or you mean eBike motors in general...? There are definitely some systems to avoid (or at least buy with your eyes wide open and only when brand new and with a warranty), and there are some systems that seem a lot more robust in general and tend to suffer much less faults as a result...

That said... Most of the problems I see with eBike motors failing when still quite low mileage are to do with repeated low cadence, max torque use... The best thing you can do for your eBike motor is spin the pedals at a decent cadence (you have no choice with an SX motor, which is partly why I particularly like it!) and not just stomp on them hard in a high gear all the time. Short of not submersing it in water or continually jetwashing it that is...

[weeksy]

Issues with the SX specifically...? Or you mean eBike motors in general...

I mean generally with Ebikes. I know forums are not the best place as people are often there for advice anyway, but over on Emtbforum every thread seems to be about a broken bike or an issue. If it's not the main part of the thread, it's in there anyway with issues. It just makes me wary about buying one.
Yesterday i was destroyed on a section by 2 ebikers at Cwmcarn, but you know what, i don't think they had more fun than me overall and i got more out of the fitness side of things than they did i bet. It's just a case of being more determined to get the climbing meters in. It's tough that place without doubt, but not impossible at all.

[mboy]

Yeah, "generally" speaking eBike motors aren't all that reliable, but as an industry trend, they're generally getting better... There are brands that are better than others within that melee though, and I'd say Bosch is definitely the safest bet still.

"Fitness" is a complicated equation... It isn't simply a case of "burying yourself as hard as you can for a given amount of time"... I'll go back to previous discussions about how my eBike rides are far more consistent in terms of intensity and HR zones, and as such, they provide me with better structure towards achieving fitness goals than I would be able to achieve on a regular bike... Am I building the same leg strength? No, of course not, but building fitness mostly comes down to consistency and the ability to recover more quickly too... If I supplemented my eBike rides with strength training in the gym (as most elite MTB racers are doing now), it would be better structured than the riding I would be able to manage on a regular MTB for sure... Road riding is much better in this respect, and why most elite XC racers have typically done most of their training on a road bike rather than off road...

As for "fun"...? Well, it's subjective... But I enjoy the descents more than the climbs, so anything that's enabling me to do more descending and minimise my time spent climbing is helping me to enjoy the ride more!

[weeksy]

I hear you, but i'd still ideally like it to be more than guesswork as to whether a motor will fail, you wouldn't accept this in most walks of life.

"oh i've had my fridge freezer 12 months and it's been repaired 3 times"
"my roof has leaked twice in 5 months since being replaced"

Fuck no, that wouldn't happen. I find it amazing MTBers are prepared to accept it. Sure, things fail, a motorbike may fail or a car, but not half of them

That said, something you mention is important, recovery. I don't see a world in which i can MTB every day in FoD, unless i uplift lol. Even then it'd be tough. The recovery is deffo something Ebikes give.

Bit of a tangent from the arms race of power here though i admit.

[mboy]

I agree...

BUT... You've already owned a bike with a Shimano EP8 motor... If you were going to have trouble with any motor, it would be that one! The fact that you didn't suggests to me that you're a little more mechanically sympathetic and/or more likely to have a far better experience than some of the people who are misusing/abusing their bikes. Also worth remembering that you'll hear about almost every bad experience with a product online, but you won't hear anything about those who aren't having any problems (I've got a mate who's got more than 12k miles on his EP8 motor now! He rides it 3x per week at least and has done for the last 4yrs).

Also, it's not like they aren't covered by a warranty... I've had to use the warranty a couple of times on my 12 month old, £450k house now... Had to use it a couple of times on the VW Caddy Van I had for work too, and I had a Yamaha MT-10 that went back for warranty work 4 separate times in less than 5 months (I called time on it at that point I'll admit!), so it's absolutely not just eBike motors for sure...

[weeksy]

lol I sold it because the motor shit itself, developing side to side play

But it was also a creaky PoS and no matter how often I sorted the linkages it would only last 2 rides before creaking again

[Mussels]

When I rode ebikes I think the electrical systems were the only bits that never failed, that was about 15 years ago so I wonder what they are doing now to make them unreliable.

[weeksy]

I just rode my LBS's demo Crafty this morning in the car park... MAN they're just BONKERS !!!!

I just know if i ever buy an Ebike i'm never using the manual bike again.. like EVER... lol.

It was in EMTB+ mode but the power is instant (and quiet), just wham straight to the 15mph limit in a second....

[weeksy]

I turned up at my mates this morning and the Mondraker Crafty demo bike that someone was taking this weekend is now not being taken this weekend. So it's now in my van for this weekend at FoD. Not because i want or need it this weekend but it means i don't get my Trek dirty and we can do a bit of exploring as well.

[mboy]

I just rode my LBS's demo Crafty this morning in the car park... MAN they're just BONKERS !!!!

I just know if i ever buy an Ebike i'm never using the manual bike again.. like EVER... lol.

It was in EMTB+ mode but the power is instant (and quiet), just wham straight to the 15mph limit in a second....

That's the thing I don't get... And I own one!

For me, the absolute least important thing is the power it has... It's about its ability to do more and to help me keep up with those on other full power eBikes too, but still get a decent workout. It's probably why when somebody says "eBikes make you lazy" to me that I really don't understand it, as eBikes have made me fitter cos I'm riding further, faster and keeping my HR in zone 2/3/4 all the time where the real work is done, not flitting between zone 1 and 5 all the time on a regular Enduro bike!

If you think the Bosch CX is mad, then try a DJI Avinox powered bike! Different league... And still only 1KW peak power, when my KTM is 120Kw (160bhp)...

It's an awesome bike! Suspension and geometry bang on for me... But mine gets ridden more in Tour+ than anything else...

[weeksy]

For the morning tomorrow i expect to be in Eco to stick with the manual lads and put in a shift. After that i may unleash a little more power

[Couchy]

You know my view on them, my rail is 3 trees old and has been derestricted from day one and always run in turbo.
It turns a relatively flat xc course like Sherwood pines into a fast exciting course. The uphills it does have become fun instead of a boring grind. I do think full power ones are a bit rubbish restricted in this use as you do hit the limiter too easy but a ride in the peaks on steep stuff restricted isn’t an issue. I love steep techy climbs and there’s no way I’d do any of them on a manual.
Just go buy one with a Bosch motor and if it breaks get the shop to fix it and carry on