Rickman Metisse

[Skub]

I'm not a dirt bike fan,but I kinda like this.
https://www.bikebound.com/2024/12/03/ri ... mhide=true

[KungFooBob]

You can still buy them new(ish).

https://www.metisse-motorcycles.com/

Everyone's favourite tv motorcyclist Henry Cole did one of his Great Motorcycle Journey series on one (South Africa iirc).

[Skub]

You can still buy them new(ish).

https://www.metisse-motorcycles.com/

Everyone's favourite tv motorcyclist Henry Cole did one of his Great Motorcycle Journey series on one (South Africa iirc).

I think I recall that trip. Leaky frame n' shit spoiled the party.

[demographic]

Reminds me of a Trident I saw at Barbon hillclimb a few years ago, think that was listed on the programme as a Metisse.
I'll fire some pix of when I get time.

[Taipan]

Theres one of these in a competition on the comp thread.

*edit* https://theclassiccompetitioncompany.co ... 0-in-cash/

[Gregor]

Mmmmmm shiney shiney chromoly.

[demographic]

Ha, took a while as photo hosting has been dicking about but here we go.

[mangocrazy]

I took these at the 2013 NEC show. I renmember being very impressed with the bronze welding.

Metisse_detail.jpg (903.78 KiB) Viewed 1092 times

And the chassis/forks/tank looked pretty good as well/

Metisse_frame.jpg (1.37 MiB) Viewed 1092 times

[littleredrooster]

My Chemistry teacher won the Cafe Racer Rickman Metisse in 1965 in an MCN competition. He had it until he died in 2012 (at which point it was halfway through a restoration) and his widow sold it and it became a feature article in a magazine.

RIP Peter, you were probably responsible for getting me into bikes in the first place.

[mangocrazy]

I took these at the 2013 NEC show. I renmember being very impressed with the bronze welding.
Metisse_detail.jpg
And the chassis/forks/tank looked pretty good as well/
Metisse_frame.jpg

Brazing, not welding.

However, yes, very nice brazing.

I've seen major arguments online over the correct terminology for that kind of metal joining. I'm going on what a guy who used to make steel motorcycle frames for a living called it, and that was bronze welding. The guy in question was Derek Chittenden (R.I.P.) who designed and built frames under the Hejira brand, and also raced them in Sound of the Singles.

Just to confuse matters further I believe it is also referred to as Braze Welding...

[KungFooBob]

I've always known it as "Brazing". The tubes are "brazed".

[Count Steer]

I took these at the 2013 NEC show. I renmember being very impressed with the bronze welding.
Metisse_detail.jpg
And the chassis/forks/tank looked pretty good as well/
Metisse_frame.jpg

Brazing, not welding.

However, yes, very nice brazing.

I've seen major arguments online over the correct terminology for that kind of metal joining.

Ooh...that's an interesting one! My 2d...if, when the braze is subsequently melted the parts separate cleanly and show no signs of fusion then I'd say they're brazed. Anyone with a frame want to conduct an experiment?

(If I'm right there's nothing lost 'cos you can braze the bits together again. ).

[ChrisW]

As I understand it brazing is glueing stuff together, welding is when two become one.

Nice vintage MX bike, by the way.

[demographic]

I took these at the 2013 NEC show. I renmember being very impressed with the bronze welding.
Metisse_detail.jpg
And the chassis/forks/tank looked pretty good as well/
Metisse_frame.jpg

Brazing, not welding.

However, yes, very nice brazing.

I've seen major arguments online over the correct terminology for that kind of metal joining. I'm going on what a guy who used to make steel motorcycle frames for a living called it, and that was bronze welding. The guy in question was Derek Chittenden (R.I.P.) who designed and built frames under the Hejira brand, and also raced them in Sound of the Singles.

Just to confuse matters further I believe it is also referred to as Braze Welding...

Brazing. It's not welding.

[mangocrazy]

As I understand it, bronze welding is performed at a higher temperature than brazing and as such does melt the base metal to a slight degree. It's a halfway house between brazing and welding, as far as I can make out. This is from the Rexarc website https://rexarc.com/blog/difference-betw ... explained/:

Braze Welding Overview

Braze welding, sometimes also referred to as bronze welding, almost resembles fusion welding. Earlier, it was only restricted to produce strong joints in bronze; however, now it is also used to produce excellent joints in cast iron, steel, copper, as well as copper-based alloys. The following are a few important features of braze welding, which differentiates it from gas welding, or acetylene gas welding, as it is referred generally.

1. The melting point of filler and base metal is different. Normally, the filler metal is chosen because it has a lower melting point than the base metal. A low fuming bronze is the common filler metal used for braze welding.
2. According to the American Welding Society, the filler metal to be used must possess a melting point above 425ºC (800ºF).
3. Many times, braze welding is confused with brazing; however, both these techniques differ in many ways. In the brazing process, the filler metal is filled into the tight-fitting joint through capillary action; however, in braze welding, the filler metal is deposited in many ways other than capillary action.
4. In this process, the molten filler material flows into prepared surfaces of higher melting point alloys or metals to form a strong molecular bond. The temperature of the base metal is increased to the point where a filler metal will form a smooth film on the joint surface.
5. Braze welding is mainly used for joining various types of steels. However, it utilizes lower temperatures than fusion welding, and it mainly involves oxy-acetylene process.
6. The intense heat produced by oxy-acetylene flame quickly increases the temperature of the base metal to the point of formation of a film. In this process, the welder can easily control the temperature of the base metal, the flame condition, as well as the melting temperature of the filler rod.

[Count Steer]

^^^ Sheds more heat than light.

It seems to be saying if you deposit more material than just filling the gap between the work pieces ie laying down a fillet of material rather than just connecting by capillary action it's a weld. But it then says:

In this process, the molten filler material flows into prepared surfaces of higher melting point alloys or metals to form a strong molecular bond. The temperature of the base metal is increased to the point where a filler metal will form a smooth film on the joint surface.

Which sounds like brazing - being a surface film.

What's the 'molecular bond'?

All a bit angels and pin-heads though. Some people probably call it 'Ethel' - main thing is it's lower temperature than normal welding so you can do it on thinner material without distorting or melting the base metal (but it still gets hot ).

I still say, if you can take it apart and assemble it again with no loss of strength I'd call it brazed but if people want to distinguish between plumbing (or building vacuum rigs ) and frame building fair enough.

[mangocrazy]

Around 1990 I was going out with a girl who was no more than 5 ft 2 in and was having trouble getting both feet down on her YPVS, so I hatched this plan to buy an accident damaged YPVS with a good motor, and put that motor in a custom made box section steel frame fabricated by Derek Chittenden. While he was building the frame (cutting and shaping the steel, jigging it up etc.) I was a regular visitor. The only reason I refer to the welding process he used as 'bronze welding' was because that was what Derek referred to it as, and he'd been doing it for 30-odd years.

That's it really. Unfortunately he's no longer around to ask, but I might get in contact with his son Mark to see if he can shed any light (without the heat) on it...

[Count Steer]

It's fairy nuff to distinguish between the 'normal' capillary* joint when you're laying down a bead of material that looks like a weld to refer to it as a 'brazed weld', really, why not? The pic up there looks very much like a weld with how the material has been laid down. Like most prolonged 'discussions' it ends up being a word tug-o-war between definitions and usage. It just gets gnarly when people think that usage replaces a definition. (Sometimes the meaning of words change over time though through common usage and the dictionaries have to acknowledge that).

(I'd still like to see what's happened to the base metal if you soften the joint and pull it apart. ).

At the end of the day, if somebody refers to a 'brazed weld', as long as the person addressed understands what's meant then fair dos.

*ie surface tension

[mangocrazy]

I've been digging around in other reaches of t'Internet and unearthed this web page that discusses brazing and bronze welding. There does appear to be a difference between the two, but it seems to be as much about technique as anything else:

https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/a ... ds-tubing/

Brazing is the process of melting a silicon-bronze – i.e. brass/zinc with traces of silicon rod and drawing it by means of heat in its liquid state, and the process of capillary flow through a tight joint/space, such as that between a well-fitting tube inside a lug.

Bronze welding is the process of building up a bead of material this ‘bronze’ material around the junction of two or more tubes, as seen on lugless frames. The name ‘bronze-welding’ is a misnomer because true welding actually uses the process of fusing the parent metal, but the term is used to differentiate it from brazing because a bead/fillet is produced as in true fusion welding. The same silicon-bronze rods are used, but often with a different flux of the non-fuming type, but often the rod will be changed for a nickel-bronze one that has a slightly higher melting point and better mechanical properties.

[Count Steer]

As it says, it's a 'misnomer' ie not 'welding' but commonly used to distinguish between two types of brazing.