I have a horrible feeling my T4 van's head gasket is toast

[demographic]

This increasing complexity is getting a bit daft. I keep calling our (Japanese) shopping trolley a laptop on wheels. Umpteen levels of menus and a load of really non-intuitive controls.

When I bought my (German) car I thought it was a tad OTT when the manual was about an inch thick and half of it seems to be screen shots rather than actual stuff like how to find the jack and change a wheel, where to put oil, water and that sort of thing (+ endless safety stuff).

However, when I get in a newer, loan version my heart sinks and getting back in mine feels like 'back-to-basics' driving.

Now they're putting all the gubbins on motorbikes!

I think I'd stick with what you've got and chuck some £££s at it - it'll still work out cheaper than buying another.

Fairly serious privacy issues with new cars, in the US they've been collecting peoples data about their driving habits and flogging on to insurance companies (amongst many others) and a lot of people don't fully reset the cars details when they sell the car on.

It's worth being aware of.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I've posted this loads of times, but your car collects laods of data about you (or at least, your driving) and sends if back to the mothership. It's been this way for at least 30 years, with increasing levels of sophistication. If your car has any sort of plug it in to dealer aspect to it during servicing, that's one of the things it's doing. If you've got an app or an online car we know loads about it.

It's all anonymised and it's not at the level of "drove to shop, drove to bingo, drove to cocaine dealer" - it's just in "bins" of how long you spent at each speed, gear etc. I can go online to a system and select "95% percentile driver in North America - total time spent at 10-20mph" sort of level.

It was originally put in place by boring Engineers like me for boring reasons. We just want to make better cars

It's only much more recently that money has got involved

S'all written down in them T&Cs you didn't read.

[cheb]

Anonymised in the same way that medical data is? That is, very easily unanonymised.

How do the T&Cs get on with a second or more owner who bought the car privately?

[Mr. Dazzle]

I've never tried to un-anonymise so I dunno

I know Porsche had to stop selling the Boxster in the EU though 'cause it doesn't meet the latest cyber security laws.

I would guess that the older ECU based systems which needed physically plugging in were vague / anonymous enough that T&Cs weren't required, or maybe you signed 'em at the dealer. The newer online systems will have a massive list you accept when you first create and account of course.

[mangocrazy]

I've posted this loads of times, but your car collects laods of data about you (or at least, your driving) and sends if back to the mothership. It's been this way for at least 30 years, with increasing levels of sophistication. If your car has any sort of plug it in to dealer aspect to it during servicing, that's one of the things it's doing. If you've got an app or an online car we know loads about it.

Does this 'plug it into dealer aspect' include use of the OBD port? I (possibly naively) thought this was only to store error codes.

I find the idea of 'online' cars completely bonkers. Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

Comes for free on my car, it has it's own 4/5G. YMMV.

But yeah you can hack it, that's why Porsche had to stop selling the Boxster. They're not the only firm hit that way.

For obvious reasons there's a very clear break between critical driving functions and other stuff.

[mangocrazy]

For obvious reasons there's a very clear break between critical driving functions and other stuff.

Hmmm, excuse me if I'm not entirely convinced. If Mr Bad Man can hack into your car, he's also likely to know a few back doors to areas he shouldn't have access to.

[Mr. Dazzle]

They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

[Count Steer]

I've posted this loads of times, but your car collects laods of data about you (or at least, your driving) and sends if back to the mothership. It's been this way for at least 30 years, with increasing levels of sophistication. If your car has any sort of plug it in to dealer aspect to it during servicing, that's one of the things it's doing. If you've got an app or an online car we know loads about it.

Does this 'plug it into dealer aspect' include use of the OBD port? I (possibly naively) thought this was only to store error codes.

I find the idea of 'online' cars completely bonkers. Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

Lots of possibilities. Police won't need stingers - just dab, dab, Enter.....screeeeeeeech! Wife can hack it and meet you at the door - with rolling pin and 'At the office again/driving to Birmingham, you say...".

Also, how soon before someone publishes a hack to release all those features the manufacturer expects you to pay for?

[Mr. Dazzle]

Also, how soon before someone publishes a hack to release all those features the manufacturer expects you to pay for?

Well you can say that about anything software driven, which is basically everything these days

People don't do it for the same reason(s) the don't commit any other crime I suppose.

Again, this is part of why some cars like the Boxster had to be taken off the market. They don't meet newer cyber security laws.

[MrLongbeard]

They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

[MrLongbeard]

They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

And Tesla too, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... rol-brakes

[Mr. Dazzle]

They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

Ha.

That's no doubt a big part of why the law got loads stricter I'd not seen that before.

Should point out I work for neither Jeep nor Tesla and of course our cars are way better

[MrLongbeard]

Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.

[mangocrazy]

Should point out I work for neither Jeep nor Tesla and of course our cars are way better

Nothing to see here, move along please...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.

That's true of anything though and things just change.

Can't get into a modern car with a coat hanger* for example.

*bet you can with a Tesla

[cheb]

Pardon me for not quite trusting any corporation not to do shitty or incompetent stuff and then express surprise when caught in flagrante.

And shortly followed by insincere apologies that change nothing and don't stop them doing similar in the future.

[MrLongbeard]

Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.

That's true of anything though and things just change.

Can't get into a modern car with a coat hanger* for example.

*bet you can with a Tesla

True, and no one thought of relay attacks, it's always been a game of cat and mouse and I don't expect it to change anytime soon

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'm surprised Jeep got hacked like that, less surprised about Tesla, if I'm honest.

In our cars certain functions are separated, they're not on the same CAN as the stereo etc. As I understand it this is mostly to make the safety cases easier/more robust rather than to avoid hacking, but it would have the same effect.

I thought that was the law, rather than our company policy. I dunno, maybe it is now.

[mangocrazy]

Mine is a 2016 and the end of the non-wet belts. TBH mate you're wrong with the amount of failures being 'so many', my next one is likely a wet-belt. Don't forget that the Transit was the best selling vehicle last year, not the best van, or the best commercial, but the best selling, highest number of ALL. They get hammered and abused... which is likely as much of a reason for the failures as anything else.

The wet-belt issue wouldn't put me off buying one... but i'd buy slightly more cautiously than a non-wet i admit in terms of where/dealer/backup.

Browsing Youtube (as you do) I found this assessment of wet belts. Pretty damning, if you ask me...