Speeding NIP Advice Required...

[mboy]

A S172 is an absolute offence which carries 6 pts. Do not ignore it!
Ask for the footage, pictures etc, just in case a fault was showing.
If that is all in order, pay up.

I think, these days, you have to opt for the court option to see their evidence.

Guidelines state that the police should provide the evidence at the first available opportunity.

That's what I thought... Hence me asking on here...

I fully accept I was on the bike, that I had not spotted the 50 signs (for whatever reasons), and that I was almost certainly travelling above the posted speed limit as a result...

But last time I was done for speeding was 12yrs ago, they informed me that I was doing 34 in a 30 (yes, really!!! No wiggle room!) and offered me a speed awareness course for my troubles... Everyone else I know that has been done for speeding more recently has been told what speed they were clocked doing, and offered speed awareness courses (where they didn't already have points)...

I would like to find out legally where I stand here basically. If the police don't legally have to provide evidence of speeding any more, just a claim of it, then so be it... But I wasn't aware that this had changed.

[wheelnut]

A S172 is an absolute offence which carries 6 pts. Do not ignore it!
Ask for the footage, pictures etc, just in case a fault was showing.
If that is all in order, pay up.

I think, these days, you have to opt for the court option to see their evidence.

Guidelines state that the police should provide the evidence at the first available opportunity.

At the first available opportunity once it goes to court unfortunately. That’s not to say they won’t provide it if asked but I doubt it.

[Nordboy]

As wheel nut says, they're guidelines, each force does things differently. Here is a direct lift from a police website ...

"Each force operates under their own guidance and although they are not obliged to provide the photographic evidence, some will. However, many forces will not release photographic evidence unless the ticket is challenged (plead not guilty). You can request the photographic evidence and in doing so you must provide your Notice number and vehicle registration number, and you must be the person named on the notice of intended prosecution. Your request will then be considered by the relevant force in line with their guidance and policy, and you may then be sent the evidence, which will usually include the photographic evidence and/or a statement.

Any person accused of a criminal offence has the right to defend themselves and in order to do this, evidence of the breach of law must be provided to them. There is no requirement as to exactly what that evidence must be, only that it is evidence of the breach of the law and that you will be able to have a fair hearing."

[McNab]

Did respond to the original NIP. Got lost in the post apparently. Have email conversation with them to this effect.

NOTHING was in the original NIP beyond what was in the follow up.

My query here is regarding the fact they haven't provided me with either a claimed speed I was doing (forget any proof for the moment), nor have they offered me a statutory speed awareness course that they normally offer anyone else. I accept I was speeding. I would like to know how much by, and also why I have not been offered the course.

When I got my NIP last year, I'm fairly sure it stated I was doing 46 in a 40 and provided me with a link to see the pictures of me doing the evil deed. It also included the paperwork to request the course.

[Bustaspoke]

Did you trigger a permanent camera or a mobile camera?
Mate's wife got 3 points for speeding a couple of years back,I asked her why didn't she go on a speed awareness course & she said that they only offer speed awareness courses if youv'e triggered a permanent speed camera,not a mobile camera.

[Skub]

Did you trigger a permanent camera or a mobile camera?
Mate's wife got 3 points for speeding a couple of years back,I asked her why didn't she go on a speed awareness course & she said that they only offer speed awareness courses if youv'e triggered a permanent speed camera,not a mobile camera.

Nah,that's not so. A load of years back I was clocked over the limit in a 40 by a mobile unit and did the course. You'll not be offered the course if you are too much over the limit 10% + 2 or have previous in the last 3 years.

[Mr Moofo]

Did you trigger a permanent camera or a mobile camera?
Mate's wife got 3 points for speeding a couple of years back,I asked her why didn't she go on a speed awareness course & she said that they only offer speed awareness courses if youv'e triggered a permanent speed camera,not a mobile camera.

Nah,that's not so. A load of years back I was clocked over the limit in a 40 by a mobile unit and did the course. You'll not be offered the course if you are too much over the limit 10% + 2 or have previous in the last 3 years.

You have to respond to the first letter to get the SAC. If you don't , the goodwill evapourates and you will get points and a fine. Fight it and you get a bigger fine

[Mr Moofo]

I think, these days, you have to opt for the court option to see their evidence.

Guidelines state that the police should provide the evidence at the first available opportunity.

That's what I thought... Hence me asking on here...

I fully accept I was on the bike, that I had not spotted the 50 signs (for whatever reasons), and that I was almost certainly travelling above the posted speed limit as a result...

But last time I was done for speeding was 12yrs ago, they informed me that I was doing 34 in a 30 (yes, really!!! No wiggle room!) and offered me a speed awareness course for my troubles... Everyone else I know that has been done for speeding more recently has been told what speed they were clocked doing, and offered speed awareness courses (where they didn't already have points)...

I would like to find out legally where I stand here basically. If the police don't legally have to provide evidence of speeding any more, just a claim of it, then so be it... But I wasn't aware that this had changed.

You need to find the first correspondence

[wheelnut]

Did you trigger a permanent camera or a mobile camera?
Mate's wife got 3 points for speeding a couple of years back,I asked her why didn't she go on a speed awareness course & she said that they only offer speed awareness courses if youv'e triggered a permanent speed camera,not a mobile camera.

Nah,that's not so. A load of years back I was clocked over the limit in a 40 by a mobile unit and did the course. You'll not be offered the course if you are too much over the limit 10% + 2 or have previous in the last 3 years.

You have to respond to the first letter to get the SAC. If you don't , the goodwill evapourates and you will get points and a fine. Fight it and you get a bigger fine

We are north Yorks - (camera van capital of the uk) the SAC thresholds are quite high. Not that far away from summons territory.

Bear in mind the individual force will collect the money for the SACs (which are infinitely cheaper to run now they are done via zoom) - FP revenue goes straight to central gov.

I’m obviously not suggesting there’s any correlation between high SAC thresholds and revenue collection though. That would never happen l.

[mboy]

Did you trigger a permanent camera or a mobile camera?
Mate's wife got 3 points for speeding a couple of years back,I asked her why didn't she go on a speed awareness course & she said that they only offer speed awareness courses if youv'e triggered a permanent speed camera,not a mobile camera.

Makes sense

The copper had literally just finished setting his camera up on the side of the road, in front of his unmarked Black BMW estate... I was on my way to meet some mates, who had ridden past only 2 or 3 minutes previously, they said he was there setting his kit up when they went past.

[mboy]

You need to find the first correspondence

Lost in the post...

The form to fill in was on the back of it, which I filled in and returned to them, but they say they never had...

No speed was on it anyway.

[Mr Moofo]

You need to find the first correspondence

Lost in the post...

The form to fill in was on the back of it, which I filled in and returned to them, but they say they never had...

No speed was on it anyway.

How did you fill the form in, if it was on the back of the letter you didn't receive ?
Phone them up and ask to see the original?

[millemille]

Hi there, first time caller but long time habitual speeder here....and also a former member of a county accident reduction steering group.

The way it works is that any appointed officer of the court, relevant to speeding this would be a police officer (and that's any police officer, not just TrafPol) or a civilian camera operator, only has to believe that you are speeding for a charge to be brought. They don't have to provide any substantiation for a charge to be brought, it can be based solely on their "expert" opinion that you were breaking the speed limit.

But that leaves them open to a challenge in court from the defendant as to how they can prove that you were speeding.

So, there are a number of ways that the officer of the court can confirm that their opinion is correct and you were speeding; they can use a measured distance and a stop watch to calculate your speed, they can use the speedo in their car, they can use a type approved speed gun and so on.

But they have to have had a believed that you were speeding BEFORE they use a device or method to confirm their belief. It is not legal for a speed camera van operator to sit their gunning every vehicle irrespective of their apparent speed, for example, they have to prove that they have formed an opinion of the speed limit being broken and then they use the camera to substantiate their belief.

Anyway, for a speeding charge that is brought by observation of speeding in the opinion, whether substantiated by a calibrated device or not, of an officer of the court - which yours is - there is no requirement for a measured speed to be obtained, shared or used in the prosecution.

You were breaking the posted speed limit in the opinion of the officer of the court and the actual speed you were doing is irrelevant.

That's why you can't get an offer of a Speed Awareness course, because Speed Awareness courses are typically only offered where the exceedance of the speed limit is a low amount. It varies from police authority but typically it's between a maximum of 10 to 20% of the posted limit. if they don't know how fast you were actually going they don't know whether you meet the criteria or not.

Obviously, when you are flashed by an automatic speed camera the speed camera is not an appointed officer of the court so the rules are different and they have to provide evidence of the speed the device has calculated you were doing. hence the 2 photo's on the road markings they supply to prove the speed.

HTH?

[mboy]

You need to find the first correspondence

Lost in the post...

The form to fill in was on the back of it, which I filled in and returned to them, but they say they never had...

No speed was on it anyway.

How did you fill the form in, if it was on the back of the letter you didn't receive ?
Phone them up and ask to see the original?

I've bolded the important bit of information here...

I received it (I was away at the time but it arrived), then when I got back home after almost 2 weeks away I filled it in and sent it back to them first class post...

2 weeks later I then received the reminder so emailed them, said they never received the original off me...

[mboy]

Thank you @millemille ... What you say makes a lot of sense given the circumstances...

Does sound particularly subjective and misleading, but I guess that has been done so by design by the boys in blue to make sure there is a higher chance of you self incriminating...

[The Spin Doctor]

Too late now of course, but having proof of receipt is really important when responding to documents like this.