Post Office scandal

[Felix]

On a more nerd-ish tangent, does anyone know what operating system/platform the Horizon boxes that were supplied to all sub-postmasters ran? Was it a standard Unix or Windows box, or was it entirely Fujitsu proprietary hardware/software?

Probs an unpatched windows 7 machine knowing the Gov, connected to server 2008...

I was in a council corporate building last week and most people were still on windows 7!

In the early 2000s they'd have probably still have been running Win 95/98. Or even (the horror) 3.11...

But seriously, I'd very much like to know whether the boxes in the sub-postmaster's offices were Fujitsu proprietary or not.

It was connected to an NT computer from what i can gather and a fujitsu program installed or do you mean the desktop tuchscreen? Possibly windowsCE


https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252 ... ys-insider

[Greenman]

On a more nerd-ish tangent, does anyone know what operating system/platform the Horizon boxes that were supplied to all sub-postmasters ran? Was it a standard Unix or Windows box, or was it entirely Fujitsu proprietary hardware/software?

Probs an unpatched windows 7 machine knowing the Gov, connected to server 2008...

I was in a council corporate building last week and most people were still on windows 7!

In the early 2000s they'd have probably still have been running Win 95/98. Or even (the horror) 3.11...

But seriously, I'd very much like to know whether the boxes in the sub-postmaster's offices were Fujitsu proprietary or not.

I keep forgetting this was decades ago.

No doubt though what ever they were using was probably fairly out of date.

[Yambo]

Given the impacts on the lives of the people involved and the fact that there is hundreds of thousands of pounds floating around somewhere, I think Vennells et al should be subject to a proper criminal investigation.

I'm no lawyer but it surely the course of justice has been perverted.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Given the impacts on the lives of the people involved and the fact that there is hundreds of thousands of pounds floating around somewhere, I think Vennells et al should be subject to a proper criminal investigation.

I'm no lawyer but it surely the course of justice has been perverted.

I was thinking on this topic....

What would you actually charge 'em with?

If they deliberately lied and covered stuff up then presumably that'd be perverting the course of justice. But "just" being inept and shit isn't strictly illegal???

Neglect I suppose?

[mangocrazy]

It was connected to an NT computer from what i can gather and a fujitsu program installed or do you mean the desktop tuchscreen? Possibly windowsCE

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252 ... ys-insider

Cheers, that's the info I was after. So the distributed boxes ran on Windows NT, connected back to the central mainframe via ISDN. That stuff was old hat twenty years ago, and the bespoke software that ran on these NT boxes was clearly not fit for purpose and, as one of the IT people says, should never have seen the light of day.

And these were the systems that Post Office senior managers were defending as robust and 100% reliable, even when they knew it was the exact opposite. Shameful behaviour.

[Yambo]

Given the impacts on the lives of the people involved and the fact that there is hundreds of thousands of pounds floating around somewhere, I think Vennells et al should be subject to a proper criminal investigation.

I'm no lawyer but it surely the course of justice has been perverted.

I was thinking on this topic....

What would you actually charge 'em with?

If they deliberately lied and covered stuff up then presumably that'd be perverting the course of justice. But "just" being inept and shit isn't strictly illegal???

Neglect I suppose?

Mmmm, there were large number of court cases where the Post Office presumably lied to get a successful prosecution.

If they knew the computer system was defective and that the people in the dock were possibly innocent of what they were being prosecuted for then I think there's a case for not only perverting the course of justice but probably perjury as well.

But, I'm not a lawyer. However, if there is nothing in the Statute books and nothing in Common Law to penalise the people at the top of the Post Office tree then British justice is in a very sick situation.

[Tarmacsurfer]

On a more nerd-ish tangent, does anyone know what operating system/platform the Horizon boxes that were supplied to all sub-postmasters ran? Was it a standard Unix or Windows box, or was it entirely Fujitsu proprietary hardware/software?

OS was Unix, language C. The keypad front end was VB

[mangocrazy]

On a more nerd-ish tangent, does anyone know what operating system/platform the Horizon boxes that were supplied to all sub-postmasters ran? Was it a standard Unix or Windows box, or was it entirely Fujitsu proprietary hardware/software?

OS was Unix, language C. The keypad front end was VB

?? That's at odds with the Computer Weekly link that Felix posted, which stipulated NT as the distributed OS. Or was there a re-write at some point where they ported to Unix?

[Yorick]

On a more nerd-ish tangent, does anyone know what operating system/platform the Horizon boxes that were supplied to all sub-postmasters ran? Was it a standard Unix or Windows box, or was it entirely Fujitsu proprietary hardware/software?

OS was Unix, language C. The keypad front end was VB

I'd have thought C++ ?

[Tarmacsurfer]

This was what I was told by someone who who knows someone contracted to Fujitsu at the time. 2nd hand info though I agree.

[demographic]

Nice that this is finally moving in the right direction, time to move onto Windrush?

[mangocrazy]

Nice that this is finally moving in the right direction, time to move onto Windrush?

Needs a 'pull at the heartstrings' dramatisation. The PO scandal has been burning away quietly for 20 years or more, had Panorama documentaries, regular Private Eye exposures etc., but only caught the public imagination when the ITV drama was screened.

[Cousin Jack]

Nice that this is finally moving in the right direction, time to move onto Windrush?

Needs a 'pull at the heartstrings' dramatisation. The PO scandal has been burning away quietly for 20 years or more, had Panorama documentaries, regular Private Eye exposures etc., but only caught the public imagination when the ITV drama was screened.

Can't expect millions of the great unwashed to watch documentaries. And politicians really DGAS unless millions of the great unwashed care.

[mangocrazy]

Nice that this is finally moving in the right direction, time to move onto Windrush?

Needs a 'pull at the heartstrings' dramatisation. The PO scandal has been burning away quietly for 20 years or more, had Panorama documentaries, regular Private Eye exposures etc., but only caught the public imagination when the ITV drama was screened.

Can't expect millions of the great unwashed to watch documentaries. And politicians really DGAS unless millions of the great unwashed care.

Yes, the sight of previously totally disinterested MPs now wringing their hands and saying 'something must be done' is totally nauseating. Plus it's an election year, so everyone's wanting to look good in the public eye. Opportunistic cunts, the lot of 'em.

[Dodgy69]

Was a cracking drama...now, how much tax to we pay and where does all the money go.

[Mussels]

This won't meet the level for perjury but shows how getting a result is much more important than being honest. The truth was he was in no position to comment on the Horizon system.

Did Bradshaw's statements lead to people going to prison?
Bradshaw is now asked if he believes his signing off of Horizon systems in witness statements led to people going to to prison.

He says he signed a lot of statements drafted by lawyers Cartwright King for the Post Office. In those he expessed "his confidence" in the IT system.

Asked if it was appropriate for him to declare "confidence" in Horizon in a 2012 statement, he said: "I was given that statement by Cartwright King and told to put that statement through."

[Cousin Jack]

This won't meet the level for perjury but shows how getting a result is much more important than being honest. The truth was he was in no position to comment on the Horizon system.

Did Bradshaw's statements lead to people going to prison?
Bradshaw is now asked if he believes his signing off of Horizon systems in witness statements led to people going to to prison.

He says he signed a lot of statements drafted by lawyers Cartwright King for the Post Office. In those he expessed "his confidence" in the IT system.

Asked if it was appropriate for him to declare "confidence" in Horizon in a 2012 statement, he said: "I was given that statement by Cartwright King and told to put that statement through."

I have some experience of working with BT lawyers (and I expect all Company lawyers are much the same). They are very very good at extracting words from you that fit the case, and at stopping you saying anything they don't want to hear.

[Taipan]

Just seen something on the news. One of the POs investigators, Stephen Bradshaw, is being investigated back. What an arrogant wanker! Hope his life is now as miserable as he made theirs!

[Scootabout]

The beeb has a piece on the options to correct these convictions and it seems to be showing up other flaws in the justice system. Not least the appeals review board who rejected 30% of appeals before they even got to court, apparently they were unlikely to succeed so weren't allowed to start.
If the government use a bill to pardon them all it risks setting a precedent that a government could abuse in the future. The justice system has been shown to be untrustworthy, this goes a bit further than the PO and Fujitsu.

This article by respected legal commentator David Allen Green explains some of the problems with the legal system that enabled the PO to behave as they did. Note the change in the burden of proof of whether a computer system is working or not, and the PO's ability to conduct private prosecutions, bypassing the filter of the CPO:

https://emptycity.substack.com/p/how-th ... um=reader2

[mangocrazy]

Part of the problem was the historical powers that the Royal Mail inherited from centuries ago, when they has to deal with Highwaymen robbing the Mail wagons. So they have their own internal Police Force and their in-house ability to prosecute, by-passing the checks that the Crown Prosecution Service would (hopefully) provide (as Scootabout mentions.

Basically the RM's ability to prosecute needs to be entirely removed and all such prosecutions handled by the CPS. Also the powers of their investigative arm needs to be drastically reduced such that they can make initial inquiries, but then have to hand over to the Police force to make further investigation and to decide if to refer to the CPS.