Anyone done a bike instructors course?

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Mr Moofo
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Mr Moofo »

Horse wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:10 pm
Mr Moofo wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:01 pm Just as a slight hi-jack, is IAM worth doing?
Or does it turn you into Mr Hi Viz dullard?
Find your local group, ask whether they would do a free assessment for you.

Similar to Spin's list, what do you hope to achieve (hi-vis, boring & smelling of wee is not mandatory)?

Is it a general 'I could be better', or do you want to be 'faster', or have you noticed something about your riding that needs fixing, or ... ?
My reason for asking ( now that OPs question has been answered) is that I want to ride "better". TBH the major hurdle being if I go away for a week on the bike , everything falls back into place. However on the once a week weekend rides, I always feel less comfortable.
The simple answer is "ride more"
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Horse »

Mr Moofo wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:00 am
I want to ride "better". TBH the major hurdle being if I go away for a week on the bike , everything falls back into place. However on the once a week weekend rides, I always feel less comfortable.
The simple answer is "ride more"
Nope, because that's not what you want to do.

I'd suggest that:
- you need to 'put on' a biking mindset
- self-talk yourself through what you should do / need to do

However, #2 in particular requires that you know and can coach yourself! That's where training might help.

What sort of situations or events catch you out, or are uncomfortable?

For the mental side of things, book a call with Spin, he can probably help.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Yorick »

Trackday instructing is more fun and pays better ;)
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Rockburner »

Mr Moofo wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:01 pm Just as a slight hi-jack, is IAM worth doing?
Or does it turn you into Mr Hi Viz dullard?
From observation.....

no - it turns you into a risk-ignoring mental case.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Horse »

Rockburner wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:44 am
Mr Moofo wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:01 pm Just as a slight hi-jack, is IAM worth doing?
Or does it turn you into Mr Hi Viz dullard?
From observation.....

no - it turns you into a risk-ignoring mental case.
https://www.devittinsurance.com/guides/ ... ers/?amp=1
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Deadpool2 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:32 pm I am thinking of training to become one. Any advice, tips etc...

I was thinking more CBT sort of stuff, not the advanced stuff Spin does...

Thanks all. This is more of a hobby thing for me, not a career. I am trying to figure out what to do post retirement and if I don’t do something I will just veg.
I spent over a decade as a basic trainer (mostly alongside my post-test training) - I was one of the very first DAS qualified instructors in the country, and set a school up in Kent with a buddy 20 years ago... but I haven't been involved at basic level since 2007, so there will be more up to date advice.

HOWEVER...

1) it's not a hobby. It's a very serious job. You're frequently teaching the youngest, most vulnerable yoof to ride and mostly they don't want to listen - half of them had a go on their mate's scoot and think that qualifies them. You'll also be teaching older novice riders who often hold a car licence and may have considerable car driving experience and mostly they don't want to listen either - they don't think there's anything you can teach them about using the roads. Working with either group is almost always stressful and both think CBT is a con and the school's simply there to empty their wallets. And then there are the ones who are really nervous or just slow learners - it takes time to figure out how to approach riders who are struggling and often low in confidence. There ARE trainees there who really, genuinely want to learn to ride, who are receptive and pick it up quickly, and they are great to teach but they are a minority.

2) you may well have to put in some serious effort to get yourself up to scratch, even as a down-trained instructor, let alone a Cardington-assessed one. Aside from understanding core teaching techniques, there's a lot of basic theory to learn and your riding may need some tweaks too - can you perform Fig 8s, U-turns and e-stops to a good level? Just learning to use a radio link effectively takes time. It's not as simple as "turn up and give new riders a few tips" as one person some years back thought was all instructors did.

3) how are you going to get trained up? There are 'academy courses' but they are expensive, some promise jobs but the feedback I've had hasn't been great, and at the end of a week or even two weeks, it's unlikely you'll feel ready to run a CBT without supervision. I took a 6 day training course with CSM who were then the biggest bike school in the country. It was a very well thought-out course, and I learned a lot (I actually learned more about teaching than I did on a PGCE as it happens) but at the end of it I was nowhere near ready to run a real CBT.

4) the alternative is to get on-site training from an existing school where you'll work with a qualified instructor on site. In theory, this can work well but what often happens is that the instructor you're paired with is already working flat out to get their CBT trainees sorted and they don't have much time for a trainee instructor. This is what happened after my CSM training course - I spent several weeks at a CSM site trying to get qualified but was getting nowhere, occasionally getting some supervision whilst doing odd bits and pieces like fixing bikes with no pay/no expenses.

After a month, I switched schools to Cinque Ports in Kent where they put me under an experienced instructor. He put me through my paces, then set up courses for me to run and helped out where I needed it, before signing me off as downtrained about a fortnight later. But I'd say I still wasn't fully confident on CBTs for three months working full time. It'll take much longer if you're working just a few days a month - at another school I worked at, we had one guy training up for over a year, because he'd only ever come in on Sundays when the weather was nice. He never got anywhere near competent enough to be let loose with his own trainees. We all tried to avoid taking him on courses with us because it significantly added to our workload, having to deal with him too.

5) when you do qualify you'll often be getting to the school at 8am (possibly earlier) to get the bikes ready and prep equipment like radios, and not leaving again till after 6pm after you've fixed any damage to the bikes caused during the day, cleaned them and put them away. Don't count on a lunch break either. It's knackering.

6) most schools will want you at weekends for CBTs... usually both days, and every single weekend during the spring, summer and autumn. They may not be happy if you pick and choose dates.

7) You get paid naff all, you're almost certainly using your own bike in all weathers, and cleaning it after ten hours at the school probably won't be top of your list of priorities.

So deciding on boots is really the last of your priorities :)
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Rockburner »

Horse wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:05 am
Rockburner wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:44 am
Mr Moofo wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:01 pm Just as a slight hi-jack, is IAM worth doing?
Or does it turn you into Mr Hi Viz dullard?
From observation.....

no - it turns you into a risk-ignoring mental case.
https://www.devittinsurance.com/guides/ ... ers/?amp=1
I wonder who "Bob Craven" is and the size of the bee in his bonnet!
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Rockburner wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:39 am
I wonder who "Bob Craven" is and the size of the bee in his bonnet!
AFAIK he's ex-plod.

He's been a thorn in my side for 20 years ;)

He makes some good points, but he makes the same ones over and over and over, at inordinate length, usually without any punctuation!

I had to ban him from my YouTube channel because I'd put up a video and he'd immediately start banging on about following distances, no matter what the video was actually about.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Mr Moofo wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 9:00 am Just as a slight hi-jack, is IAM worth doing?
Or does it turn you into Mr Hi Viz dullard?

My reason for asking ( now that OPs question has been answered) is that I want to ride "better". TBH the major hurdle being if I go away for a week on the bike , everything falls back into place. However on the once a week weekend rides, I always feel less comfortable.
The simple answer is "ride more"
I don't think the OP's question got FULLY answered :mrgreen:

So...

What do you mean by 'better'?

More consistently? More smoothly? More quickly?

Or is it overcoming a confidence issue?

Sounds like the last to me. Whilst almost all of us (myself included) can be a bit rusty after a long layoff (I'm talking months here), you shouldn't have any issues riding just once a week - you should be able to pick up where you left off.

If you want my honest advice, if it's confidence you want to improve, the IAM aren't the right people to head to. Despite what the IAM say about it being a 'training course', the goal is exactly what it's always been - to edge you towards a style of riding that will put a smile on the IAM examiner's face.

Oddly enough, I'm running a brand new series on my www.facebook.com/survivalsklls and www.ko-fi.com/survivalskills pages on how to use winter constructively to prepare for next season's riding. One of the things I'll be looking at is overcoming this kind of issue.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Deadpool2 »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:26 am
Deadpool2 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:32 pm I am thinking of training to become one. Any advice, tips etc...

I was thinking more CBT sort of stuff, not the advanced stuff Spin does...

Thanks all. This is more of a hobby thing for me, not a career. I am trying to figure out what to do post retirement and if I don’t do something I will just veg.
I spent over a decade as a basic trainer (mostly alongside my post-test training) - I was one of the very first DAS qualified instructors in the country, and set a school up in Kent with a buddy 20 years ago... but I haven't been involved at basic level since 2007, so there will be more up to date advice.

HOWEVER...

points 1-7

So deciding on boots is really the last of your priorities :)
Thanks Spin, lots of food for thought. I will try and see if the local schools will let me train and then see how the reality measures up. It may work or not, but its good to know how challenging it might be so that I can manage my expectations.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Bigyin »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:26 am

HOWEVER...

1) it's not a hobby. It's a very serious job. You're frequently teaching the youngest, most vulnerable yoof to ride and mostly they don't want to listen ……… lots of very good and honest stuff
Points 1 to 7 above I cannot agree with more but didn’t type up last night as I wanted to keep it fairly brief. Loads of the above are almost exactly my experience and I can relate to everything Spin brought up in his very informed and real world post.

One thing I would probably add more is in relation to the magic words “risk management” which I have already expanded more to the OP in message form.

Is the student capable of independent thinking ?
Can they adapt to real life rather than training pad?
Will they target fixate at the van coming towards them ?
Do they react to a short, sharp command ?

Etc, etc, etc

I do like the fact Spin referred to “Cardington” standard as that’s all I heard through learning from the other instructors. “There is real world CBT and Cardington CBT”

Ironically it’s now no longer used for bike assessment hence my trips up to Chadderton on the outskirts of Manchester as my “local” assessment centre .
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

I should also have said...

On a good day, bike training is the most rewarding thing I've ever done... and one good day makes up for a LOT of bad days.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Horse »

Deadpool2 wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:23 pm I will try and see if the local schools will let me train
If there's a wary reception to your enquiries, they may be concerned that you intend, long-term, to set up in opposition.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Bigyin »

Horse wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:47 pm
Deadpool2 wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:23 pm I will try and see if the local schools will let me train
If there's a wary reception to your enquiries, they may be concerned that you intend, long-term, to set up in opposition.
Yeah, what most won’t realise is that once you pass the CBT assessment it enables you to not only train people to CBT standard but also allows you to train up to 10 downtrained instructors under your ticket and also establish your own ATB school ;)
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Scootabout »

Many years ago I did a day's shadowing of a CBT instructor as a taster for possibly becoming one. ISTR some talk of it being legal to train a certain category of rider without being CBT or DAS qualified. It might have been - I'm not sure - riders with CBT who are doing restricted access, ie intending to take their test on a 125. Since the test regime has changed since then (around 2006-8 maybe?) I assume that loophole has been filled?
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by MyLittleStudPony »

I've considered it myself. Mainly as a vehicle (metaphorically speaking) to indulge myself at other people's expense. I'm not really into any of the learning or safety bollocks.

For me it would be very dependent on what trousers I got to wear. Of course. If I can indulge myself and wear a flamboyant trouser, I'm potentially up for it.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Bigyin »

Scootabout wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:32 pm Many years ago I did a day's shadowing of a CBT instructor as a taster for possibly becoming one. ISTR some talk of it being legal to train a certain category of rider without being CBT or DAS qualified. It might have been - I'm not sure - riders with CBT who are doing restricted access, ie intending to take their test on a 125. Since the test regime has changed since then (around 2006-8 maybe?) I assume that loophole has been filled?
The only thing that i can think of is the downtrained instructor as it doesnt require a full CBT or DAS qualification but only entitles the instructor to train up to 125cc

As the limit on the bike is 125cc then a downtrained instructor can get someone through an A1 restricted license as long as they know exactly what it takes to get through the 2 tests hence why most schools use fully qualified instructors to do the A1 as they know what Mod1 and Mod2 test requirements need and as a downtrained its above what you need to know and perfect and you are dealing with peoples money and the school pass rate.

I have taken a couple of 17 year olds through their A1 license but by then i already had my full CBT instructors ticket and was working to my DAS ticket so was already learning the Mod1 and 2 test procedures
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by The Spin Doctor »

Scootabout wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:32 pm Many years ago I did a day's shadowing of a CBT instructor as a taster for possibly becoming one. ISTR some talk of it being legal to train a certain category of rider without being CBT or DAS qualified. It might have been - I'm not sure - riders with CBT who are doing restricted access, ie intending to take their test on a 125. Since the test regime has changed since then (around 2006-8 maybe?) I assume that loophole has been filled?
To take a CBT session you must be an approved instructor - either down-trained by the school, or with a full CBT card (what we used to call Cardington-assessed).

Then as now, new riders had to take CBT with an approved instructor... but once they have the CBT in their sweaty little hands, they can ride a 125 unaccompanied on the road on L plates.

When I trained up in 1995, it was certainly the case that CSM hadn't signed me off as a downtrained CBT instructor (at which point they would have to have started paying me) yet I was taking no less than five L platers out on the road for training, and even escorting them to their tests! My understanding was that it was illegal to charge for training if you're not qualified - certainly plenty of people have told me that. So I questioned this and was told it wasn't illegal for a non-qualified person to be taking paid-for MOTORCYCLE training - so I was legal to deliver the on-road training just so long as the learners had a CBT signed by one of the other instructors.

Direct Access came in in 1997 and added the DAS assessment to the CBT ticket. Only DAS-approved instructors could take trainees out on the road on the DAS bikes. But so far as I know, the loophole allowing non-qualified instructors to train riders on 125s on the road has never been plugged.

Most people seem to think that you can't change for ANY training if you're not qualified but I've tried to discover the exact rules a number of times, and I've never been able to find the precise piece of legislation that speaks of PTWs.

Incidentally, CSM's training course also covered training for the test, as did their comprehensive instructor handbook. This laid down exactly what was expected on each day of a course, so that any instructor at any CSM site could pick up a 3 or 4 day course and know exactly what had been covered up to that point by the previous instructor. It wasn't unusual for trainees on a four day course to have four different instructors.
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Scootabout »

The Spin Doctor wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:26 pm My understanding was that it was illegal to charge for training if you're not qualified - certainly plenty of people have told me that. So I questioned this and was told it wasn't illegal for a non-qualified person to be taking paid-for MOTORCYCLE training - so I was legal to deliver the on-road training just so long as the learners had a CBT signed by one of the other instructors.
.....
But so far as I know, the loophole allowing non-qualified instructors to train riders on 125s on the road has never been plugged.

Most people seem to think that you can't change for ANY training if you're not qualified but I've tried to discover the exact rules a number of times, and I've never been able to find the precise piece of legislation that speaks of PTWs.
Thanks, Bigyin and Spin. The bit quoted above seems closest to what I remember. Seems odd that it's permissible, no?
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Re: Anyone done a bike instructors course?

Post by Horse »

Scootabout wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:49 pm Seems odd that it's permissible, no?
Like that a learner could offer 'advanced' training? :wtf:
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