How essential is the rear brake?

[Horse]

It's funny how many people will tell you the rear brake is "essential" for low speed control.

Proven by the simple fact that some bikes have linked brakes which don't allow 'rear only' use. The Guzzi V50 foot pedal operated the rear disk and one front.

[Count Steer]

It's funny how many people will tell you the rear brake is "essential" for low speed control.

Proven by the simple fact that some bikes have linked brakes which don't allow 'rear only' use. The Guzzi V50 foot pedal operated the rear disk and one front.

Possibly. I've had linked brakes where the pedal operated the rear brake only. The main problem with using the front on low speed, tight manoeuvres was operating the lever with the bars on a fullish lock in either direction. The angles are really awkward, but then again it's the same with precision clutch work on wide bars on fullish lock too. They're all designed to be optimum when in a straight line.

[Horse]

Yes, operating the controls, the how, is a separate issue to the dynamics of what happens.

That how could be physically using the controls, or how much happens when they're used. And a twin disk set on the front that's designed to stop from 150mph is going to be an abrupt overkill for a 10mph U turn.

Being towards the under-height range, with proportional arm length and hand size, so reach to the bars, I used to roll the bars back in the clamps and adjust the clutch for an earlier friction zone. Otherwise, I struggled on full right lock.

[Cousin Jack]

Having had linked brakes on the VFR, I found them a mixed blessing.

Pro - great for losing speed rapidly and safely. Almost all stops except REAL e-stops just needed the front lever. Very little drama involved, and really stable from high speeds. The ABS was rarely invoked, even in the wet.

Con - not so good on steep downhill hairpins, when just a little too much rear boot pressure made the front disc grab too. I preferred using the front lever where at least I had much finer control than with my boot.

[Count Steer]

Yes, operating the controls, the how, is a separate issue to the dynamics of what happens.

That how could be physically using the controls, or how much happens when they're used. And a twin disk set on the front that's designed to stop from 150mph is going to be an abrupt overkill for a 10mph U turn.

Well, yebbut, you could say the same about the throttle, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. It's all about fine control, which gets more difficult with levers as the bars turn, less so with the throttle and there are no such geometry problems with the pedal and it's less of a problem if you're a bit cack-handed/footed with the back brake.

I do remember meeting up with someone from VD at the local Suzuki dealer (Steve Jordans). I'd not met them before and he turned up on something (might have been a Pan) and he rolled in, did a feet up u-turn on a sixpence and parked up. I looked at wife, she looked at me and I said 'He's 'job'' Sure enough he was one of the boys in blue.

[Horse]

Having had linked brakes on the VFR, I found them a mixed blessing.

Can't remember who, but possibly someone from VD, came along for a session. Their Honda had linked brakes. We had a play, found that shrtest, least fuss, e-stops were using both brakes rather than letting the system sort itself out.

[KungFooBob]

Most of the original early 00's Honda CBS braked bikes (VFR, Varadero, CB1000F, etc..) used three and two piston callipers.

Front brake activated two of the three front pistons (per calliper) and one of the rears.

Rear brake activation was one rear piston and one front.

Too get all pistons 'engaged' you needed to use both levers.

Modern bikes use the ABS valve block and the ECU to control it all. The Honda's had an extra Master Cylinder mounted to a pivoting calliper mount on one of the front fork legs.

[Horse]

Yes, operating the controls, the how, is a separate issue to the dynamics of what happens.

Well, yebbut, you could say the same about the throttle, but that doesn't seem to be a problem.

It's all about fine control, which gets more difficult with levers ...

You could, but I'm not sure that it's a fair comparison, as the throttle 'only' controls the engine.

However, one of the issues with levers is that the fingers with most dexterity are closest to the pivot. Ironically, vintage bikes had the pivot point at the outside end of the bars, allowing better fine control.

[Horse]

Most of the original early 00's Honda CBS braked bikes (VFR, Varadero, CB1000F, etc..) used three and two piston callipers.

Front brake activated two of the three front pistons (per calliper) and one of the rears. Rear brake activation was one rear piston and one front. Too get all pistons 'engaged' you needed to use both levers.

Can't remember what bike it was. Allowing the system to work had the bike hopping and bouncing.

[Horse]

... he rolled in, did a feet up u-turn on a sixpence and parked up. I looked at wife, she looked at me and I said 'He's 'job'' Sure enough he was one of the boys in blue.

The Met were known for some of the acrobatics they had trainees doing.


The local IAM asked me to run a slow riding session at Goodwood track day. There wasn't much space, so it was quite a tight 8 box.

One guy hopped up, feet on the seat. I think those in the know that he was job expected me to be fazed by it. But he wasn't looking as far ahead as he could be, so we worked on that

[Trinity765]

I didn't use any rear brake until I started advanced riding and now I use it all the time. It's so automatically that it's hard to recall what I do with it. I'll use both brakes if I have to stop quickly - I still practice emergency stops as I find that gives me confidence. I'll use it during slow control as it helps to keep the bike steady - particularly on the Speed which has less than perfect fuelling at slow speeds. When braking into corners I'll start with both brakes but may keep the back brake on all the way through a corner (just a tiny bit - just enough to feel that it's there) and if I'm going into a series of bends I may have the back brake on continuously though all of them - for control. If I'm starting to panic, I'll cover the rear as I'll use that to gently scrub off a bit of speed. I also go for soft pads in the rear as you get a better feel and as we all know, the front does most of the real stopping.

How essential is it - I don't know. I ran out of rear pads on a Scottish tour (not my fault as I'd asked the dealer to check them) so had to ride with only the front for a few hundred miles in the wet. It took a while to get used to it, but once I did, it didn't make much difference - I just had to remind myself to be careful.

[Dodgy69]

Will a bike stop quicker using both. ???

[weeksy]

Will a bike stop quicker using both. ???

Why would it not ? more braking = quicker stopping.

[Dodgy69]

I'm still thinking...

[weeksy]

I'm still thinking...

How ? it's simple science.

[Horse]

Will a bike stop quicker using both. ???

Until the point when the rear's off the ground

[Dodgy69]

My thinking is...the reduction in speed is caused by the most powerful braking force, which will be front, so the rear does nothing regarding braking. I could be wrong though.

[Mr. Dazzle]

How about fitting a slipper clutch too Reduce engine braking but then brake with the brakes!

I suspect there might be some difference between maximum attack track braking and road braking

[Horse]

My thinking is...the reduction in speed is caused by the most powerful braking force, which will be front, so the rear does nothing regarding braking. I could be wrong though.

Front and rear will each have a maximum amount of grip. They're not fixed, but vary according to the surface, weather, bike's weight distribution, etc. The type of bike (e.g. cruiser, sports) will also have implications.

If the rear is on the road, then it can contribute braking effort. Perhaps not much in comparison to the front, but some.

[Horse]

How about fitting a slipper clutch too Reduce engine braking but then brake with the brakes!

Verging here close to the 'clutch engaged yes/no during emergency stops' discussion

One argument is that the engine helps to stop the rear from locking. The other that if it does lock then the engine will stall, releasing the brake will bump start the engine.