Roundabouts? AARGH!

[Noggin]

Over here they are taught to indicate off the rondpoint.
The favoured tactic is to hug the outside of the roundabout until the desired exit arrives then go.
If I'm driving the moho, then I'll dominate 2 lanes of the roundabout and prevent the stupid bastards trying to slide up the inside, if I'm on the bike, then I use speed and manoeuvrability to keep me out of trouble

Virtually all do still indicate onto, so left, as they enter the roundabout and 'most' remember to indicate off!!

[Wossname]

I do some part-time lorry driving now , pulling 3-axle artic trailers. I often NEED to use 2 lanes to get round tight junctions eg on the approach to roundabouts. It never ceases to amaze me that when I’m straddling lane 1 and 2 to set the lorry up for one that some idiot will squeeze his car up beside me 6” from my door, to beat me on to the RA. Trouble is, others follow his example, and I have to wait till they’ve all gone before I can move, or else just plough on and hope one of them gets the message.

[Demannu]

I do some part-time lorry driving now , pulling 3-axle artic trailers. I often NEED to use 2 lanes to get round tight junctions eg on the approach to roundabouts. It never ceases to amaze me that when I’m straddling lane 1 and 2 to set the lorry up for one that some idiot will squeeze his car up beside me 6” from my door, to beat me on to the RA. Trouble is, others follow his example, and I have to wait till they’ve all gone before I can move, or else just plough on and hope one of them gets the message.

When I was learning to drive psv, the instructor told us to make it very clear to any potential organ donor that there is no way you'll 'just squeeze past'. I suppose we were lucky with 12ft overhang at the back and 9 at the front that a quick flick on the wheel would put the back end over one lane and the front over the other.
When I took my test, the examiner remarked "is Malc your instructor?'

[Noggin]

I do some part-time lorry driving now , pulling 3-axle artic trailers. I often NEED to use 2 lanes to get round tight junctions eg on the approach to roundabouts. It never ceases to amaze me that when I’m straddling lane 1 and 2 to set the lorry up for one that some idiot will squeeze his car up beside me 6” from my door, to beat me on to the RA. Trouble is, others follow his example, and I have to wait till they’ve all gone before I can move, or else just plough on and hope one of them gets the message.

I watch people doing that sometimes (not from an HGV!) and just want to get out and go tell them they are idiots!!! When I took my bike test, the instructor made absolutely sure that all of us students understood that, just cos there is space one side or the other of a large vehicle does not mean you should take it!!

Having driven larger vehicles and having a parent that drove HGVs, I kinda understood, but we all got to sit and play with toy cars and lorries on a kids play mat - interesting seeing some of the others (much younger than me!) get the realisation of how much space big vehicles need.


We have a different but similar issue here with the hairpins. Anything larger than than a 7.5tn truck needs a bit of the other lane going up and down the hairpins. Interesting how many people think they can squeeze through - or stop on the hairpin and expect the larger vehicle to magically 'fly' over them or reverse up the hill to allow them space Makes winter Saturdays interesting with the number of coaches going up and down

[Rockburner]

Over here they are taught to indicate off the rondpoint.
The favoured tactic is to hug the outside of the roundabout until the desired exit arrives then go.
If I'm driving the moho, then I'll dominate 2 lanes of the roundabout and prevent the stupid bastards trying to slide up the inside, if I'm on the bike, then I use speed and manoeuvrability to keep me out of trouble

Virtually all do still indicate onto, so left, as they enter the roundabout and 'most' remember to indicate off!!

I think I was once told that the French are taught to treat the roundabout as a distinct road - ie as if it was a road in-and-of-itself - hence indicate on, indicate off, prioritie a droit, etc, not sure if it's true, but it would explain things. (in the UK roundabouts are (iirc) taught as a self-contained junction with their own internal rules - makes sense for a mini or small roundabout, but not for things like huge motorway roundabouts which are essentially an independent circular road). I suppose it kinda makes a sort of sense, but at the same time doesn't.

[Noggin]

Over here they are taught to indicate off the rondpoint.
The favoured tactic is to hug the outside of the roundabout until the desired exit arrives then go.
If I'm driving the moho, then I'll dominate 2 lanes of the roundabout and prevent the stupid bastards trying to slide up the inside, if I'm on the bike, then I use speed and manoeuvrability to keep me out of trouble

Virtually all do still indicate onto, so left, as they enter the roundabout and 'most' remember to indicate off!!

I think I was once told that the French are taught to treat the roundabout as a distinct road - ie as if it was a road in-and-of-itself - hence indicate on, indicate off, prioritie a droit, etc, not sure if it's true, but it would explain things. (in the UK roundabouts are (iirc) taught as a self-contained junction with their own internal rules - makes sense for a mini or small roundabout, but not for things like huge motorway roundabouts which are essentially an independent circular road). I suppose it kinda makes a sort of sense, but at the same time doesn't.

Prioritie a droite is mostly in villages. And, despite having a ton of tourists here, there are still quite a few of these junctions to catch people out! Once you know that they were implemented (certainly around here) to help with the horse and cart transport it makes understanding them easier - junctions at the top or bottom of a slope (not always steep) or near one, better to have prioritie a droite than try and stop a fully loaded cart in time for the junction!

But, they are still proper scary in some places. There's one near me where the person giving way can't actually see the road joining due to trees


The other thing about French roundabouts is that they used to be based on priority to the car JOINING the roundabout. NOT to the car ON the roundabout.

On all B road RAs and actually quite a lot of smaller A road ones, there will be a sign saying "YOU DO NOT HAVE PRIORITY"!

Just to remind people that the law has changed!! Which also gives a bit more insight into why some French drivers have such an interesting approach!!

In another few years, hopefully all the French will have been taught the new law - not convinced of that though

[iansoady]

We recently returned from a trip to southern Brittany and I can report that priorité à droite is still alive and well down there......

[The Spin Doctor]

I think I was once told that the French are taught to treat the roundabout as a distinct road - ie as if it was a road in-and-of-itself - hence indicate on, indicate off, prioritie a droit, etc, not sure if it's true, but it would explain things. (in the UK roundabouts are (iirc) taught as a self-contained junction with their own internal rules - makes sense for a mini or small roundabout, but not for things like huge motorway roundabouts which are essentially an independent circular road). I suppose it kinda makes a sort of sense, but at the same time doesn't.

The Priorite a Droit rule for roundabouts was changed decades ago... early 1980s if I remember right.

Roundabouts are a solution to a very specific problem of flowing traffic across a junction when traffic levels are light to medium, and equally balanced in all directions.

If traffic flows change, they become increasingly inefficient. If traffic starts flowing predominantly north-south for example, then it becomes increasingly difficult to move east-west through the dominant flow. And they simply clog-up when traffic flows get too heavy. Many junctions that were built as roundabouts in the 50s and 60s have either been re-engineered as lights controlled cross-road style junctions, or have had lights put in around the island - a real cludge of a solution.

The problem with bigger roundabouts is that vehicles carry more speed around the more open curves, making it more difficult to get onto the island. The usual solution is lights, or to turn them two-way with small satellite roundabouts.

[iansoady]

... or even cloverleaves. We live near the only one in England (apparnetly) and traffic flows well on it. Except those people who don't understand it of course....

[The Spin Doctor]

Prioritie a droite is mostly in villages.

I hate to disagree on that, but I can take you to several Priorite a Droit junctions on through routes in open countryside within a few miles of Calais.

When I ran my training sessions over there, I used to make a real point of explaining how and why the system.

they are still proper scary in some places. There's one near me where the person giving way can't actually see the road joining due to trees

And that's WHY Priorite a Droit exists... the driver trying to get OUT of that road can't see approaching traffic either! Lines of sight are two-way... so you see the sign, slow down ready for the vehicle that's emerging.

One of the junctions we encountered on my Calais training route this one, it was directly on top of blind crest... in the UK there would have been a SLOW marking in the road, a junction warning sign, an anti-skid surface... and likely a pile of glass and bits of broken car swept into the gutter. In France it was clearly marked as Priorite a Droit so you simply went up to the crest slowly, ready to stop.

Here's the sign...

Priorite a droit 02.jpg (139.22 KiB) Viewed 634 times

And, despite having a ton of tourists here, there are still quite a few of these junctions to catch people out!

I've had experienced riders who've toured extensively telling me, quite seriously, that Priorite a Droit no longer exists. It's alive and well, you can find these junctions on most rural routes as well as in urban centres and villages. And it exists over most of Europe too!

What most Brits fail to realise is that once you are off the roads with the black and yellow diamonds which tell you you have priority at all the junctions until the sign is cancelled, then each junction has to be treated on an individual basis. And to read this you have to know there are TWO signs for junctions in Europe - this one in the photo, the /x\ which means you MUST GIVE WAY at the next turning on the right. The other is the /+\ sign that tells you have priority at the next junction...

The other key clue is the ABSENCE of a GIVE WAY or STOP line in the road to the right. If there's no road marking, it's Priorite a Droit.

it means you have to check the priority at each and every junction.

Once you know that they were implemented (certainly around here) to help with the horse and cart transport it makes understanding them easier - junctions at the top or bottom of a slope (not always steep) or near one, better to have prioritie a droite than try and stop a fully loaded cart in time for the junction!

Interesting - I've not heard that before.

The other thing about French roundabouts is that they used to be based on priority to the car JOINING the roundabout. NOT to the car ON the roundabout.

On all B road RAs and actually quite a lot of smaller A road ones, there will be a sign saying "YOU DO NOT HAVE PRIORITY"!

Just to remind people that the law has changed!! Which also gives a bit more insight into why some French drivers have such an interesting approach!!

In another few years, hopefully all the French will have been taught the new law - not convinced of that though

In another few years anyone who remembers the old law will be dead! I think it's around 40 years since it changed

[Noggin]

Prioritie a droite is mostly in villages.

I hate to disagree on that, but I can take you to several Priorite a Droit junctions on through routes in open countryside within a few miles of Calais.

When I ran my training sessions over there, I used to make a real point of explaining how and why the system.

I didn't write that very well. Countryside yes, but generally not in madly busy areas - well, around here!! I've not driven off motorways in much of France, so don't have a lot of knowledge!! Just local knowledge!

they are still proper scary in some places. There's one near me where the person giving way can't actually see the road joining due to trees

And that's WHY Priorite a Droit exists... the driver trying to get OUT of that road can't see approaching traffic either! Lines of sight are two-way... so you see the sign, slow down ready for the vehicle that's emerging.

One of the junctions we encountered on my Calais training route this one, it was directly on top of blind crest... in the UK there would have been a SLOW marking in the road, a junction warning sign, an anti-skid surface... and likely a pile of glass and bits of broken car swept into the gutter. In France it was clearly marked as Priorite a Droit so you simply went up to the crest slowly, ready to stop.

Not always! This one is the one I was meaning - pics from google, so not great. And must be a couple of years old as there are a lot more trees on the river bank now.

The priority is to the vehicle coming off the bridge onto the road. Visibility from that point is just fine. You can see who is coming from both directions!

However, now the trees have grown more, if you drive up the road to the junction with the bridge (with the bridge to the right), you can NOT see the traffic on the bridge, so it makes it quite an interesting junction, priority a droite or not!! Yes, if someone stops at the edge of the bridge and then pulls out, you can see them. But you can't see the mad french that know they have right of way on the bridge - and they won't slow down to join the road cos, well, they have right of way!!





I actually only know one locally where the person pulling out onto the main road can't see whats coming!! For that one there are mirrors as well as a sign

And, despite having a ton of tourists here, there are still quite a few of these junctions to catch people out!

I've had experienced riders who've toured extensively telling me, quite seriously, that Priorite a Droit no longer exists. It's alive and well, you can find these junctions on most rural routes as well as in urban centres and villages. And it exists over most of Europe too!

What most Brits fail to realise is that once you are off the roads with the black and yellow diamonds which tell you you have priority at all the junctions until the sign is cancelled, then each junction has to be treated on an individual basis. And to read this you have to know there are TWO signs for junctions in Europe - this one in the photo, the /x\ which means you MUST GIVE WAY at the next turning on the right. The other is the /+\ sign that tells you have priority at the next junction...

The other key clue is the ABSENCE of a GIVE WAY or STOP line in the road to the right. If there's no road marking, it's Priorite a Droit.

it means you have to check the priority at each and every junction.

TBF, I always look at the junction lines - simply because, where I am, half the signs are covered by trees/bushes, so it's way safer to check the junction road markings.

However in small villages (and sometimes bigger villages/towns) it's basically safer to assume everyone will pull out on you - especially if you are driving a car with a UK plate

[The Spin Doctor]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a /x\ sign on the approach, but no matter - here's your second clue you are looking at a junction where YOU have to give way from this direction.

Priorite a droit 03.jpg (89.7 KiB) Viewed 617 times

I've snipped and zoomed the junction itself - there are no GIVE WAY or STOP markings in the road joining from the right - therefore you don't have priority. Took me a while to figure that out, but it works wherever you don't see a triangular sign.

And just in case you missed that, there's a GIVE WAY triangular sign facing you

[Noggin]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a /x\ sign on the approach, but no matter

As I've said, a lot are hidden by foliage! OR, worse, they are so far before the turn that unless you know the turn is there, you don't realise! (You as in visitors mostly - although I did find a new PaD last autumn! I'd never seen the sign, just knew there was a dodgy turn - then they must have had a hedge trim and I realised the sign was actually there as well!! Luckily I'd seen the mirrors that let me and the driver pulling out see each other!!

But yes, there is one further back down the road - I didn't say there wasn't. My issue is that you have to slow almost to stop to be sure no one will pull out on you because there is no visibility of the traffic on the bridge!!

- here's your second clue you are looking at a junction where YOU have to give way from this direction.

Priorite a droit 03.jpg

I've snipped and zoomed the junction itself - there are no GIVE WAY or STOP markings in the road joining from the right - therefore you don't have priority. Took me a while to figure that out, but it works wherever you don't see a triangular sign.

I know, I live here and use that road almost every time I go to the valley!! (Very often in the winter!)

Like I said before - I do look at the junction for markings, and also assume someone will pull out regardless!!

And just in case you missed that, there's a GIVE WAY triangular sign facing you

Aaah - but, that particular give way sign is for the cycle path

[The Spin Doctor]

But yes, there is one further back down the road - I didn't say there wasn't. My issue is that you have to slow almost to stop to be sure no one will pull out on you because there is no visibility of the traffic on the bridge!!

But that's the point... the priority system means you SHOULD slow down because there is no visibility on the bridge. So the driver on the bridge is not 'pulling out regardless', they are pulling out in the reasonable expectation that the approaching rider / driver will have seen the sign, realises it means that they MUST give way, and actually are prepared to do so.

The alternative - ie UK - system is to let traffic blast past at 60 mph whilst the poor bugger who's trying to nose out to a point where he can see but takes out a biker who says "you should have looked properly".

Frankly, I really don't see the problem - and I can think of quite a few genuinely horrible junctions here in the UK Priority to the Right would make MUCH safer.

Aaah - but, that particular give way sign is for the cycle path

Ok, fair enough... but if it applies to the cycles...

[Scootabout]

I sometimes find myself unsure whether priorité à droite applies to driveways and exits from car parks, etc. Anyone know if there's a rule on that?

[Noggin]

I sometimes find myself unsure whether priorité à droite applies to driveways and exits from car parks, etc. Anyone know if there's a rule on that?

Legally it doesn't apply to driveways or car park exits.

However, proceed with caution. Someone pulled out on me from a car park exit, he also shouldn't have because I was going uphill in a resort, so he should have given way regardless. But, I was English, am a girl and had limited French. So the gendarmes did nothing and it went against the insurance of company that I was working for


Sometimes it's better to just be aware that someone 'might' pull out on you and be ready


The other thing to be aware of is that I've heard both english and french people comment that their car is about to die so they'll go to a particular junction and wait for a UK reg vehicle to come along and pull out on them to cause an accident that is the other person's fault and so claim on the other persons insurance for a vehicle that should be scrapped.

Probably not something that would happen often, but I've heard a few people mention this, so I am extra careful even though I don't drive a uk reg car!!!

[DefTrap]

I hate priorite a droite. 15 years in and it still makes no sense in my poor brain. On a straight road with folk leathering it, it makes sense to proceed with caution from a side road, not pitch out onto it and hope for the best.

Big problem for foreigners as they tend to get rearended

[Noggin]

I hate priorite a droite. 15 years in and it still makes no sense in my poor brain. On a straight road with folk leathering it, it makes sense to proceed with caution from a side road, not pitch out onto it and hope for the best.

Big problem for foreigners as they tend to get rearended

Spin will be along in a mo to point out that the priorite a droite sign means everyone should stop leathering along!!

But that just doesn't happen in all cases!

[Rockburner]

I hate priorite a droite. 15 years in and it still makes no sense in my poor brain. On a straight road with folk leathering it, it makes sense to proceed with caution from a side road, not pitch out onto it and hope for the best.

Big problem for foreigners as they tend to get rearended

Spin will be along in a mo to point out that the priorite a droite sign means everyone should stop leathering along!!

But that just doesn't happen in all cases!

This. You can put all the signs up you want, it won't stop people driving inappropriately.

[The Spin Doctor]

This. You can put all the signs up you want, it won't stop people driving inappropriately.

Absolutely agree...

...but it helps if people understand what signs they COULD look for, and what they actually mean.