Airbag vests/ jackets etc - Yay, nay, don't care?

[MrLongbeard]

I read it, and counter that the types of accident, speeds, distances and forces are not comparable between horse and motorcycle rider

A horse weighs a third of a tonne. A modern car could be 1.5 to 2 tonnes.

How much force results from 1/3 tonne landing on a rider from two metres up, compared with the rider hitting at the side of a two tonne car at 30 mph?

I'm sure someone can do the calculation, but frankly, I don't rate either's chances.

AFAIK, and I haven't read the French norm, equestrian airbags are designed to protect the rider against falls from height, not dobbin sitting on the rider.

[The Spin Doctor]

I read it, and counter that the types of accident, speeds, distances and forces are not comparable between horse and motorcycle rider

A horse weighs a third of a tonne. A modern car could be 1.5 to 2 tonnes.

How much force results from 1/3 tonne landing on a rider from two metres up, compared with the rider hitting at the side of a two tonne car at 30 mph?

I'm sure someone can do the calculation, but frankly, I don't rate either's chances.

AFAIK, and I haven't read the French norm, equestrian airbags are designed to protect the rider against falls from height, not dobbin sitting on the rider.

That's my point.

An airbag might help when falling from the height of a highside to the ground (whether that's from a horse or a bike) but are unlikely to achieve much if you land under the horse, let alone impact a car or a tree.

[Horse]

That's my point.

An airbag might help when falling from the height of a highside to the ground (whether that's from a horse or a bike)

And, funnily enough, that's exactly the scenario that I said where, for me, an airbag jacket might have reduced the severity of my injuries.

unlikely to achieve much if you land under the horse, let alone impact a car or a tree.

Of course, if you take this to the extreme, is any gear ever 'good enough' - and for what? Is the answer, then, ATGATT - or NoGATT?


Eventing, which is like TT for the gee-gees, keeps very detailed records, eg:

https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/new ... ine-sports which has loads of links to other research.

https://res.cloudinary.com/britishevent ... 202021.pdf

Of course, as the sport addresses safety concerns, it may be that changes, for example, to fence/jump design will alter the type and severity of falls.

But not always successfully:

Unfortunately, there are currently no published scientific studies that have investigated whether collapsible fences reduce the risk of horse falls, and in fact it has been shown that these fences are associated with a higher risk of horse falls.

[Horse]

https://www.medequestrian.co.uk/rider-s ... air-vests/

[The Spin Doctor]

That's my point.

An airbag might help when falling from the height of a highside to the ground (whether that's from a horse or a bike)

And, funnily enough, that's exactly the scenario that I said where, for me, an airbag jacket might have reduced the severity of my injuries.

It's all about managing expectations.

If I was an urban courier again, I might possibly consider an airbag jacket because of the risk of a low-speed urban spill where it could conceivably make some difference.

But most of my riding is done out of town at much higher speeds, where I doubt it would make any measurable difference.

It's the same with back protectors. They are a 'must-fit' for many riders who will argue about which make will give the best protection, without every asking "do they actually achieve anything in the first place?" The fact is, the jury's out:

Conclusion: This systematic review highlighted lack of appropriate evidence on efficacy of back protectors. Based on limited information, we are uncertain about the effects of back protectors on spinal injuries. Further research is required to substantiate the effects of back protectors on mortality and other injuries to the back.

Source:
A systematic review on the effectiveness of back protectors for motorcyclists
Rafael Ekmejian, Pooria Sarrami, Justine M Naylor, Ian A Harris
Scand J Trauma Resusc Emerg Med 2016 Oct 4;24(1):115. doi: 10.1186/s13049-016-0307-3.

Summary here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27716409/
Full text available

Of course, if you take this to the extreme, is any gear ever 'good enough' - and for what? Is the answer, then, ATGATT - or NoGATT?

Oddly enough, I've just written a piece about female scooter riders, who to my general observations, seem to be the least prepared when it comes to protective clothing.

https://ko-fi.com/post/COMMENT-November ... -N4N6G7QGT

Here's just one extract:

We can get a sense of likely injuries from the most common locations for abrasion damage to clothing after a crash:

wrists and hands (18%)
ankles and feet (18%)
shoulder (10%)
forearm (10%)
elbow (9%)
thigh (7%)
lower leg (6%)
pelvic-hip region (5%)

The back doesn't feature in that list.

So... protect what you need to, and with appropriate kit. Above all else, gloves and ankle-covering boots. For sub-30 mph use around town, Level A CE is probably adequate for upper / lower body.

Judge Dredd style armoured leathers aren't appropriate.

[Horse]

Again, re back protectors and injuries, since IIRC many rider spinal injuries are from side impacts (shoulder?), an airbag which reduced those side impacts (not all extend out over the shoulders) might be effective.

[The Spin Doctor]

Again, re back protectors and injuries, since IIRC many rider spinal injuries are from side impacts (shoulder?), an airbag which reduced those side impacts (not all extend out over the shoulders) might be effective.

Or from landing on your backside - compression. That's how I damaged my spine.

[Hot_Air]

Or from landing on your backside - compression. That's how I damaged my spine.

Regarding back injuries, you’re in the majority. These authors argue back protectors need a redesign because their current design fails to protect us from compression fractures:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31751784/

Considering how the motorcycle protective clothing industry responded to CE standards, I’m not holding my breath for the industry to improve back protector design.

[Horse]

Again, re back protectors and injuries, since IIRC many rider spinal injuries are from side impacts (shoulder?), an airbag which reduced those side impacts (not all extend out over the shoulders) might be effective.

Or from landing on your backside - compression. That's how I damaged my spine.

Yup, that too. But I didn't think of it until after posting.

Again, though, not all jackets cover that area.

[Noggin]

Or from landing on your backside - compression. That's how I damaged my spine.

Regarding back injuries, you’re in the majority. These authors argue back protectors need a redesign because their current design fails to protect us from compression fractures:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31751784/

Considering how the motorcycle protective clothing industry responded to CE standards, I’m not holding my breath for the industry to improve back protector design.

I'd be really interested to know how it's expected to create a back protector that can protect from compression fractures!!

Having had two compression fractures, from two different sports (L1 & L2, one from hitting my head hard and one from landing on my butt from a great height, about 17 years apart!!) I just can't see that that sort of protection is going to be achievable??


Equally, do we really want to be protected from everything? There's a really simple way - stop doing stuff that's dangerous. Alternatively, wrap up with SO MUCH protective gear that the stuff you enjoyed is no longer enjoyable for the amount of 'stuff' being worn in various places for protection?


I've got a few friends that 'joke' about wrapping me up in bubble wrap to prevent any more injuries (well, I 'think' they are joking!!). But, where do you draw the line?

I ride in normal jeans (ok, mostly because my draggin jeans type things don't fit but also because I want to be comfortable - most bike gear trousers haven't been comfortable), textile jacket, decent helmet, decent gloves and boots. And, ok, I had a couple of cuts on my knees in the road crash, but the real damage was 'protected'.


I'm not giving up bikes and I will learn to paraglide. I'll go back to skiing next winter. No point if you have to wear too much protective stuff and can't enjoy the sport anymore - only IMO of course!

[Hot_Air]

I won’t argue for wrapping us up in cotton wool. But I would argue for the ability to make a well-informed choice, not an advertising-influenced choice.

[Noggin]

I won’t argue for wrapping us up in cotton wool. But I would argue for the ability to make a well-informed choice, not a marketing-informed choice.

100%

But the knowledge that there is nothing that is guaranteed to protect us also needs to be shared and understood to enable people to make their choices with full info

[Hot_Air]

I totally agree. No amount of airbags will be effective versus hitting at tree at the national speed limit.

[Noggin]

I totally agree. No amount of airbags will be effective versus hitting at tree at the national speed limit.

Not much will help!! Not just airbags!! LOL

[Scootabout]

JOOC what do you expect it to achieve?

Nothing, I hope, is the slightly glib answer!

In terms of the sort of off it might help with, I'm thinking high speed blow-out of one of my tubed tyres, or other crashes of whatever cause that, maybe, 23 years ago when I started riding I might have healed reasonably quickly from, but now at the 'Paul McCartney' age might take a lot longer or end my riding career.

[Horse]

I'd be really interested to know how it's expected to create a back protector that can protect from compression fractures!!

Having had two compression fractures, (L1 & L2, one from hitting my head hard and one from landing on my butt from a great height I just can't see that that sort of protection is going to be achievable??

Head
Inflatable cycle helmet already exists, a jacket could incorporate an element of this.

Wouldn't need the full MX helmet coverage, instead a 'sausage' from the nape up over the crown.



Airoh are developing an airbag helmet. I might even have posted about it ...


Coccyx
Some aleady state coccyx coverage, this is the best I could find.




Shoulders
Potentially stopping spine twist

[Scootabout]

I totally agree. No amount of airbags will be effective versus hitting at tree at the national speed limit.

Yep, I'm not kidding myself about that. And indeed, the crash I had in the summer - running into the back of a 3.5 tonner - is a much lesser case in point. If I'd had even less stopping distance and had done a head-plant into the van I doubt the airbag would have even had time to deploy, let alone protect me.

I see it not as a panacea but as just stacking the odds a bit more in my favour.

[Horse]

If I'd had even less stopping distance and had done a head-plant into the van I doubt the airbag would have even had time to deploy, let alone protect me.

I think that recently I quoted the Dr saying about losing energy in a short distance being a bad thing.

Hitting the back of a van would probably qualify.

If a car, standing up might have taken you over, losing energy over a longer distance.

As I also said (fark ... I'll start going irie and posting quotes next ), choose your crash

[Noggin]

I'd be really interested to know how it's expected to create a back protector that can protect from compression fractures!!

Having had two compression fractures, (L1 & L2, one from hitting my head hard and one from landing on my butt from a great height I just can't see that that sort of protection is going to be achievable??

Head
Inflatable cycle helmet already exists, a jacket could incorporate an element of this.

Wouldn't need the full MX helmet coverage, instead a 'sausage' from the nape up over the crown.



Airoh are developing an airbag helmet. I might even have posted about it ...


Coccyx
Some aleady state coccyx coverage, this is the best I could find.




Shoulders
Potentially stopping spine twist

A compression fracture is 'usually' landing on your butt quite hard and the shock going up through your spine causing a compression fracture. Or the other way. One of mine was the first the other involved hitting my head hard on a door lintel whilst not in control of a horse, causing a compression fracture further down

None of the above would prevent a compression fracture in the traditional sense

I'm not saying that they wouldn't help with other things, but they are only there to 'help' prevent some injuries. I really don't believe that you can prevent all injuries. And some spinal injuries are very difficult to prevent, like compression fractures. What are we going to do? Wear air bag pants in the hope that they inflate before our butts hit the ground?

[Horse]

A compression fracture is 'usually' landing on your butt quite hard and the shock going up through your spine causing a compression fracture. Or the other way.

None of the above would prevent a compression fracture in the traditional sense

I'm not saying that they wouldn't help with other things, but they are only there to 'help' prevent some injuries. I really don't believe that you can prevent all injuries. And some spinal injuries are very difficult to prevent, like compression fractures.

Prevent all - very unlikely
Prevent some - possibly
Reduce severity of some - more reasonable

The examples were all of kit available now. But also as examples of how protection might be adapted or adjusted.

I don't know what the most common rider injuries are, or how designers and developers make their choices. They might be able to mitigate the most devastating injuries - but if they rarely happen, could be better off designing for more common injuries.

For example: protect the ribs and sternum at the 'cost' to those spinal injuries. *

in the hope that they inflate before our butts hit the ground?

IIRC if you use a tethered version it will inflate 'later' than electronic @Hot_Air will have details, I'm sure!

Bearing in mind that race suits are electronically triggered in a different way to road suits (and, very possibly, given that their manufacturers know the details of many crashes, are designed to protect against different injuries to 'road' suits), it might not be impossible to develop suits that protect against the impact that you are going to have.

Cars have (as a colleague explained it) 'multiple pyrotechnic devices'. Not all - sometimes none! - will operate in a crash. A bike & rider system (effin complicated one) might use a combination of sensors to know what is ahead of you, what the bike is doing (and about to do) and what is about to happen to you.

Some bikes already have radar and sensors for cornering ABS.

So, for example, your airbag pants might inflate ahead of a side impact by a car, then head & shoulder inflate as you're knocked sideways.



* In 'car' trauma care, there is now less concern over spinal injuries. They are rare. Research found that prolonged extraction of casualties, due to spinal care, was more likely to adversely affect outcomes from more common injuries.

And so fewer cars have their roof removed.

Also, less use of neck collars as a default too.