command position

[Tigs]

I have a position question

My instructor said 'stay i the middle of the lane' - which I believe is command position - but later he also said - stay where the 'wheels' of the car are as there is debris in the middle of the lane. I feel when driving where the wheel was - I get a better view .. but I guess I could be undertaken?

So, where should I position myself? is in the wheel (not the center) central enough..

As for life savers - if i'm setting off - one over each shoulder

If i'm turning - a life saver before a movement / lane change in the direction i'm moving before i move there - so I can adjust my course if there is danger... still getting my head around roundabouts..

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Different conditions require different road positions, treat the advice you're given as sensible guide lines, rather than hard and fast rules.

Remember, only one person is responsible for your safety, you, think for your self.

[Trinity765]

Can you explain why you were in any road position at any time? Is it for a view? Is it because there is less debris? Is it to give the vehicle coming in the other direction more room (your safety bubble)? Your examiner will be looking for you to demonstrate that you are considering all of these things all of the time.

[Noggin]

I think I was told, and now generally ride, on the line of the second third of the road (between the kerb on my side and the white line). So roughly, very roughly, in the wheel track of the car in front - very rough and cars vary position, like bikes!! LOL

But, I move depending on what I need to see, what the road is doing (for instance, I move away from the white line for right hand bends to avoid any chance of getting clipped by someone cutting the corner the other way!).

I definitely don't think you 'need' to stay in one place. If you are following a lorry or a panel van, in the middle of the road the vehicle in front has no idea you are there (no rear view mirror), so then, I ride to have visibility of the wing mirror of the vehicle in front - which often means moving back a bit too!!

I don't think the centre position is ideal (happy to be corrected) and I do generally ride to the right of the centre line of my side of the road (I'm translating this to UK roads, so hopefully I've got it right!!)

You need to be comfortable where you are on the road and be visible!!

[wheelnut]

I think the answer is, if you’re still preparing for your test, then listen to your instructor.

In an urban environment I would generally ride slightly to the right of the centre line, but one of the advantages of a bike is that you can adjust according to the risk.

Bunch of kids playing by the road, if circumstances allow I would consider moving closer to the centre of the road. Tractor coming the other way then I would consider moving left. I may also choose a line that keeps me off drain covers and potholes.

That doesn’t mean you spend your life weaving along the road though, see the hazard in plenty of time and split the difference between the risks.

One of the things to avoid on your test though is to move right for a view round a left corner - although that is something you will be encouraged to do post test, it’s a no-no on your test.

[Count Steer]

Never thought about it like this before but I suppose most of the time you'll be within a circle of a few feet of where you'd be sat driving a car. You have a greater degree of freedom to respond to something and move left obvs.

[Horse]

I think the answer is, if you’re still preparing for your test, then listen to your instructor.

That.


I'd happily give you suggestions on how to decide where to be within the lane width. However, for now your priority - presumably? - is getting a full licence.

Any secondhand advice from the Internet is open to misinterpretation and likely to confuse you.

I'm out of touch with current DVSA requirements. Ideally examiners would understand if you were to be using appropriate positioning relative to the situation ahead. But I wouldn't like to guarantee that would actually happen.

[Horse]

As for life savers - if i'm setting off - one over each shoulder

If i'm turning - a life saver before a movement / lane change in the direction i'm moving before i move there - so I can adjust my course if there is danger... still getting my head around roundabouts..

Where can danger come from?
Where are your mirror blind spots?

If you're stopped alongside the kerb, what would you gain (or prevent) by looking at the pavement?

For all lifesavers before turning, ensure you have time and space to react if there's anything there.

I think one of Spin's recent 60 Seconds viddos covered roundabouts, LSs may be in there. Check his Survival Skills UK youtube channel.

[Tigs]

Thank you - that is really helpful ..

I think what confused me was the instructor said 'both' .. but you have made me think about 'where' he said each' - -and it was down to road conditions avoiding debris or view/being seen safely

I was initially reluctant to go near the cars on the other lane - but realised when I was in the same position as a driver - I had a much better view - and actually felt more seen - safer

[Cousin Jack]

Positioning - it all depends.

What you are trying to achieve is a 'bubble' of safe space around you, but where you can see as far in advance as you can. To achieve that bubble you need to think about what the current dangers are, is from your left (eg parked cars) or the right (oncoming traffic), and try to balance that risk. Sometimes you need more view, so you move out, sometimes the danger is from your left, so you move out. If a bloody great artic is coming towards you overhanging the centre line, move in sharpish! Middle of the lane is a good compromise most of the time, so listen, as for between the tyre tracks or on the track, again it all depends. Sometimes the centreline bit is full of crap especially out in the country, so avoid it. Sometime the wheeltracks are worn very smooth and can be slippery (sometimes on busy roads they can be worn into ruts, that actually fill with water), while the centreline is good grippy tarmac. Use the bit that is best for you in that place at that time.

Listen to your instructor, and take advice but THINK for yourself.

[The Spin Doctor]

Let's look at it from a different angle... why are we assuming ANY position?

The answer is to try to minimise risk.

The trouble is, there are lots of different threats which all try to push us in different directions.

For basic training, staying middle of the lane gives you a reasonable clearance to hazards to the left AND to the right at the same time. It also puts you in a dominant position in the lane - keep too far left and vehicles WILL squeeze past on your right. If the road's really WIDE though, I'd say keep left of centre - about where the offside wheels of a driven car would be, and not to try to go 'middle of the lane' because that opens a gap on the nearside. I have had trainees who tried to sit in the centre of a wide lane undertaken - I remember a minicab really putting the wind up a trainee doing that on a wide road in Folkestone.

Round bends, what the examiner is really alert to is that you don't 'cut' a right-hander and get close to oncoming vehicles mid-bend. Stay centre or just left-of-centre all the way round. And on a left-hander, don't cut into the kerb mid-bend but don't run wide on the exit either. Once again. try to stay just centre or left-of-centre all the way round - that'll keep YOU clear of drivers cutting the corner coming the other way. Remember - you 're not supposed to be an expert rider at this point - but you are supposed to stay out of trouble.

But there are times we can move around from that middle of the lane position - if there's a blind junction ahead and you can't see into it, no-one about to pull out can see you either - you can move out to the right a bit to open up the view, provided that doesn't put you at risk from oncoming vehicles.

And if there's something big coming the other way, or perhaps parked on the other side of the road, what if something pulls out round the back of it? Keeping a bit left-of-centre will keep you further away AND give a better 'see and be seen' line of sight.

And finally, react to the road surface if you need to. White paint arrows can be slippery when wet so avoid riding directly over them if you can, ditto SLOW and other markings - ride between the paint letters if you can. Watch for wet metal access covers and steer around them if you can. So to deal with these issues, that'll often be to the left or right of centre.

Watch for fuel spills - steer away from them, whichever side makes more sense. Ditto mud.

Finally, there used to be a problem with oil dripping off the bottom of buses and trucks that left an oily line down the middle between the wheeltracks approaching traffic signals and roundabouts. They fixed that several decades ago but there's still this idea that the strip of road between the tyres is more slippery. It's actually likely to be less worn - see how the anti-skid surfaces wear out at traffic signals. Generally speaking anything slippery will be shiny and best avoided... but if the surface looks OK, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Horse]

Finally, there used to be a problem with oil dripping off the bottom of buses and trucks that left an oily line down the middle between the wheeltracks approaching traffic signals and roundabouts. They fixed that several decades ago but there's still this idea that the strip of road between the tyres is more slippery.

It may be reduced, but it's not gone away.

This is the entrance to a car park, where vehicles will stop for just a few seconds.

20221031_055811.jpg (361.31 KiB) Viewed 529 times

There's also a useful observation link that if you see a dark 'smudge' mid-lane, it may be preceded by a dip in the road. The 'bump' as vehicles encounter the rise is enough to dislodge any oil drips and they accumulate.

[iansoady]

I used to be a great enthusiast for the early Roadcraft positioning style, but many years and sage comments by Kevin and other later I've greatly modified that and now as said pay far more attention to other things.

With regard to white lines etc I find that most in the UK are OK but have come across some horrors in France - ped crossings like greased glass in the rain.

[The Spin Doctor]

Finally, there used to be a problem with oil dripping off the bottom of buses and trucks that left an oily line down the middle between the wheeltracks approaching traffic signals and roundabouts. They fixed that several decades ago but there's still this idea that the strip of road between the tyres is more slippery.

It may be reduced, but it's not gone away.

This is the entrance to a car park, where vehicles will stop for just a few seconds.



There's also a useful observation link that if you see a dark 'smudge' mid-lane, it may be preceded by a dip in the road. The 'bump' as vehicles encounter the rise is enough to dislodge any oil drips and they accumulate.

Fair point though the gateway does constrain vehicles very tightly to a single line.

The point I was making was that 40 year ago the grease at traffic lights was thick enough to scrape off with a spatula and fry chips in, and that is the sort of advice that's still being handed out when the current reality is nothing that bad.

I had a specific look at the lights on the N Circular Road on the way to meet my trainee this morning just to check, and there was a slight darkening between the wheeltracks at each set of lights. Certainly nothing obvious 'oily' and nothing I would bother about, wet or dry.

[Cousin Jack]

I had a specific look at the lights on the N Circular Road on the way to meet my trainee this morning just to check, and there was a slight darkening between the wheeltracks at each set of lights. Certainly nothing obvious 'oily' and nothing I would bother about, wet or dry.

Whereas I had a look at the inside lane of the M a few years ago. The wheel tracks were visible ruts, in rain they filled with water, and stayed wet long after the rest of the lane was dry.

[Horse]

Fair point though the gateway does constrain vehicles very tightly to a single line.

40 year ago the grease at traffic lights was thick enough to scrape off with a spatula and fry chips in, and that is the sort of advice that's still being handed out when the current reality is nothing that bad.

Certainly nothing obvious 'oily' and nothing I would bother about, wet or dry.

I guess it's a general improvement in vehicle engineering.

Potential worst case was stopping with the bike's wheels in the [smooth] right hand wheel track and put your foot down in the grease ...

[Rockburner]

I had a specific look at the lights on the N Circular Road on the way to meet my trainee this morning just to check, and there was a slight darkening between the wheeltracks at each set of lights. Certainly nothing obvious 'oily' and nothing I would bother about, wet or dry.

Whereas I had a look at the inside lane of the M a few years ago. The wheel tracks were visible ruts, in rain they filled with water, and stayed wet long after the rest of the lane was dry.

Hardly a surprise given the tonnage of some trucks.

[Bigyin]

I think the answer is, if you’re still preparing for your test, then listen to your instructor.

One of the things to avoid on your test though is to move right for a view round a left corner - although that is something you will be encouraged to do post test, it’s a no-no on your test.

I think the answer is, if you’re still preparing for your test, then listen to your instructor.

That.

I'd happily give you suggestions on how to decide where to be within the lane width. However, for now your priority - presumably? - is getting a full licence.

Any secondhand advice from the Internet is open to misinterpretation and likely to confuse you.

I'm out of touch with current DVSA requirements. Ideally examiners would understand if you were to be using appropriate positioning relative to the situation ahead. But I wouldn't like to guarantee that would actually happen.

Interestingly i was told recently that teaching new riders "to ride to pass a test" was 100% wrong and if that was how they were being taught the training was poor yet that is exactly how the above has been put by both.

As Horse said, what we would like to think examiners "might" take into account/understand and what they actually apply on the day of Mod 2 test might vary greatly. I even questioned one of the higher ups at the new place in Manchester where all the instructors are assessed as to how "cornering" should be delivered in order to comply with what examiners want as the guidance in their own literature and what examiners want appears to differ. The reply was to teach the pupils what will keep the examiners happy so thats what i do.

[The Spin Doctor]

Whereas I had a look at the inside lane of the M a few years ago. The wheel tracks were visible ruts, in rain they filled with water, and stayed wet long after the rest of the lane was dry.

There are sections of lane one on motorways I have found almost undrivable in a car because the ruts are truck-width. The car kind-of hops from one rut to the other - it's almost impossible to drive in a straight line.

And the standing water in them is a real issue on a bike too.

Best avoided even if it means annoying people by driving in lane two.

[Horse]

Whereas I had a look at the inside lane of the M a few years ago. The wheel tracks were visible ruts, in rain they filled with water, and stayed wet long after the rest of the lane was dry.

Hardly a surprise given the tonnage of some trucks.

Funnily enough, it's not just the weight, it's how close together the wheels are. Asphalt is - or should be - 'springy', it should deflect under wheel load, then rebound. Heavy trucks with multiple close wheels don't allow that rebound before the next wheel loading arrives.

It gets worse. Once the tramway starts to form, trucks tend to use it rather than spreading loading over a wider area.