CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
- Horse
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CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
This is more of a blog than typical thread start post, but I'm happy to answer [most ] questions.
It covers my recent operation, what led to it, and likely and possible future.
So, history and background.
I had often wondered why I ended riding big heavy bikes. I'm not an outdoorsy type person, don't like getting wet and cold, and I am a wimpey scaredy cat. Crucially, I have never considered that I had a particularly good sense of balance.
However, I did say that I wouldn't stop biking until told to by a doctor.
What's changed?
Two things seem to have led to the current situation:
1. As i wrote elsewhere, on Friday Aug. 23rd 2002, at about 13.10, while I was crossing a mini-roundabout at 15mph, someone thought I was a gap in traffic. I'd just stood up at the point of impact, and the next memory I have is of being flat on my back in the road, unable to move. Luckily, I'd had a soft landing - I'd landed on my head . . . I suffered concussion, a strained neck and various bruises. My bike was written-off.
I had x-rays, physio, etc., but my neck was never the same. If going out to somewhere where i would be looking a lot from side to side (out to dinner, for example) or - conversely- where i would be sat still (cinema, theatre), then I would take a couple of paracetamol.
2. December 2017. Chest infection. Lots of coughing. My sense of balance went AWOL - i would be bouncing off the walls walking along corridors.
This gradually improved, but I'd had enough by June so saw the GP. Labyrinthitis, it will get better with time.
It did. Easter 2018 I bought a bicycle. Then another chest infection. It got worse again. After three events (one fall, two close), GP again. GP says no bikes. I'd already worked that one out! Sent to see an ENT consultant. Sent for an MRI and balance tests.
Then, after the MRI, the phone call you don't want "Just let you know, the radiologist has noticed an abnormality in your brain, Southampton neurology will be contacting you".
Two weeks of "fuck, it's cancer", then some relief when an 'urgent' appointment didn't appear.
The balance tests showed that the inner ear mechanism is fine - but my eyes wobble - nystagmus.
Consultant appointment Jan 2019.
I expected to be told that my balance was buggered, so get used to it.
No, i have a Chiari Type 1 malformation. Basically, the cerebellum (base of skull at the back) is partially squidged down the hole (hope you're keeping up with the medical jargon) where the spinal cord exits south.
Also, I have retroflexed odontoid process (part of the C2 vertebra) and basilar invagination of the clivus. In other words, part of my spine and base of skull are crimping the brainstem. This meant by symptoms were not typical Chiari.
Cerebellum is the '3 bits of broccoli'
Odontoid proces (peg) is the boney finger
Clivus (base of skull) is the bright white area
Google an MRI to see the crimp.
Subsequent googlefest shows that things that I had accepted as 'doesn't everyone get this?' and never wondered about were Chiari effect. The funniest is the laugh/cough/sneeze headache! Skull then karate chops cerebellum, which then gives a few seconds of headache.
Typical other effects are nystagmus, headaches, tinnitus, eyes affected by bright light (hmmm first glasses were tinted, optician said that my eyes needed it) ...
Let's swiftly cover through until April 2020:
- Full spine MRI, rule out syrnyx (sp)
- Another neuro consultant, to rule out intracranial hypotension.
- MRI with contrast
- CT
- X-rays
- Dynamic MRI, me moving my head slowly, from fully back to forwards
Then it gets unpleasant...
December 2019, consultant #1 again. Dynamic shows how badly the brainstem is being affected. I am already having changes to the way the nerves in my legs work. Brainstem also does other boring stuff like 'breathing'.
Jan 2020, consultant #3. It's highly likely that, as well as Chiari 'decompression' (removing a section of skull) that the peg and clivus will need to be 'machined' to create room. This is done through the nasal cavity, after operation 1 to decompress but also to fuse skull to spine.
April 2020, consultant #4. He will do operation 1.
Which was Monday.
Discharged Tuesday, which was a surprise.
Why?
All these problems are congenital. Consultant #3 commented that most of them exhibit by the time their 'owners' are in their teens - so I should think myself lucky that I'd had an extra 45 years.
Of course, without MRIs it couldn't accurately be diagnosed before autopsy! Frighteningly, the endoscopic endonasal skull base surgery is a relatively new development. Previously they would split the jaw and cut through the palette.
What was done? Two things done:
1. Decompression, by removal of an arc of skull to enlarge the hole at the base. 2.5 x 2.5 cm. Also removal of the back of C1 vertebra.
2. Fusion of the craniovertebral junction, that's fixing skull to C1 and C2 with titanium vmbolts and rods. The CVJ allows you to nod and shake your head. I will have lost most of that movement.
Recovery includes 3 - 6 months in a rigid collar.
Review in 3 months to see whether this has also created enough room for the brainstem.
Long-term outlook is having to relearn to drive.
Ideally, I'd like no more nystagmus and an end to headaches.
However, if operation 1 hasn't created enough space for the brainstem, I'll be on the waiting list again.
Re the CVJ, more info here:
At this point you may be wondering what else was removed on Monday
But no. Imagine ....
The seat is your skull, the floor is the top of your main spine 'c3' vertebra. The mechanism which allows your skull to move about is the craniovertebral junction.
Skulls tips for and back on C1, C2 has the peg sticking up, an axle that allows C1 and skull to rotate.
https://www.spineuniverse.com/amp/47990
Scroll down for the diagram - that's where my new titanium bolts and rods have been installed, to make the joint rigid. This is preparatory for operation 2, potential removal of the peg. But hopefully not.
Luckily, they were out of stock of the purple anodised bolts.
It covers my recent operation, what led to it, and likely and possible future.
So, history and background.
I had often wondered why I ended riding big heavy bikes. I'm not an outdoorsy type person, don't like getting wet and cold, and I am a wimpey scaredy cat. Crucially, I have never considered that I had a particularly good sense of balance.
However, I did say that I wouldn't stop biking until told to by a doctor.
What's changed?
Two things seem to have led to the current situation:
1. As i wrote elsewhere, on Friday Aug. 23rd 2002, at about 13.10, while I was crossing a mini-roundabout at 15mph, someone thought I was a gap in traffic. I'd just stood up at the point of impact, and the next memory I have is of being flat on my back in the road, unable to move. Luckily, I'd had a soft landing - I'd landed on my head . . . I suffered concussion, a strained neck and various bruises. My bike was written-off.
I had x-rays, physio, etc., but my neck was never the same. If going out to somewhere where i would be looking a lot from side to side (out to dinner, for example) or - conversely- where i would be sat still (cinema, theatre), then I would take a couple of paracetamol.
2. December 2017. Chest infection. Lots of coughing. My sense of balance went AWOL - i would be bouncing off the walls walking along corridors.
This gradually improved, but I'd had enough by June so saw the GP. Labyrinthitis, it will get better with time.
It did. Easter 2018 I bought a bicycle. Then another chest infection. It got worse again. After three events (one fall, two close), GP again. GP says no bikes. I'd already worked that one out! Sent to see an ENT consultant. Sent for an MRI and balance tests.
Then, after the MRI, the phone call you don't want "Just let you know, the radiologist has noticed an abnormality in your brain, Southampton neurology will be contacting you".
Two weeks of "fuck, it's cancer", then some relief when an 'urgent' appointment didn't appear.
The balance tests showed that the inner ear mechanism is fine - but my eyes wobble - nystagmus.
Consultant appointment Jan 2019.
I expected to be told that my balance was buggered, so get used to it.
No, i have a Chiari Type 1 malformation. Basically, the cerebellum (base of skull at the back) is partially squidged down the hole (hope you're keeping up with the medical jargon) where the spinal cord exits south.
Also, I have retroflexed odontoid process (part of the C2 vertebra) and basilar invagination of the clivus. In other words, part of my spine and base of skull are crimping the brainstem. This meant by symptoms were not typical Chiari.
Cerebellum is the '3 bits of broccoli'
Odontoid proces (peg) is the boney finger
Clivus (base of skull) is the bright white area
Google an MRI to see the crimp.
Subsequent googlefest shows that things that I had accepted as 'doesn't everyone get this?' and never wondered about were Chiari effect. The funniest is the laugh/cough/sneeze headache! Skull then karate chops cerebellum, which then gives a few seconds of headache.
Typical other effects are nystagmus, headaches, tinnitus, eyes affected by bright light (hmmm first glasses were tinted, optician said that my eyes needed it) ...
Let's swiftly cover through until April 2020:
- Full spine MRI, rule out syrnyx (sp)
- Another neuro consultant, to rule out intracranial hypotension.
- MRI with contrast
- CT
- X-rays
- Dynamic MRI, me moving my head slowly, from fully back to forwards
Then it gets unpleasant...
December 2019, consultant #1 again. Dynamic shows how badly the brainstem is being affected. I am already having changes to the way the nerves in my legs work. Brainstem also does other boring stuff like 'breathing'.
Jan 2020, consultant #3. It's highly likely that, as well as Chiari 'decompression' (removing a section of skull) that the peg and clivus will need to be 'machined' to create room. This is done through the nasal cavity, after operation 1 to decompress but also to fuse skull to spine.
April 2020, consultant #4. He will do operation 1.
Which was Monday.
Discharged Tuesday, which was a surprise.
Why?
All these problems are congenital. Consultant #3 commented that most of them exhibit by the time their 'owners' are in their teens - so I should think myself lucky that I'd had an extra 45 years.
Of course, without MRIs it couldn't accurately be diagnosed before autopsy! Frighteningly, the endoscopic endonasal skull base surgery is a relatively new development. Previously they would split the jaw and cut through the palette.
What was done? Two things done:
1. Decompression, by removal of an arc of skull to enlarge the hole at the base. 2.5 x 2.5 cm. Also removal of the back of C1 vertebra.
2. Fusion of the craniovertebral junction, that's fixing skull to C1 and C2 with titanium vmbolts and rods. The CVJ allows you to nod and shake your head. I will have lost most of that movement.
Recovery includes 3 - 6 months in a rigid collar.
Review in 3 months to see whether this has also created enough room for the brainstem.
Long-term outlook is having to relearn to drive.
Ideally, I'd like no more nystagmus and an end to headaches.
However, if operation 1 hasn't created enough space for the brainstem, I'll be on the waiting list again.
Re the CVJ, more info here:
At this point you may be wondering what else was removed on Monday
But no. Imagine ....
The seat is your skull, the floor is the top of your main spine 'c3' vertebra. The mechanism which allows your skull to move about is the craniovertebral junction.
Skulls tips for and back on C1, C2 has the peg sticking up, an axle that allows C1 and skull to rotate.
https://www.spineuniverse.com/amp/47990
Scroll down for the diagram - that's where my new titanium bolts and rods have been installed, to make the joint rigid. This is preparatory for operation 2, potential removal of the peg. But hopefully not.
Luckily, they were out of stock of the purple anodised bolts.
Even bland can be a type of character
- Noggin
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Wow. Scary stuff when its skull, spine, brain!!
Hope its worked!
Hope its worked!
Life is for living. Buy the shoes. Eat the cake. Ride the bikes. Just, ride the bikes!!
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
So. What sort of barbecue have you got and do I get first dibs?
Or, in other words: Take care of yourself and get well soon.
Or, in other words: Take care of yourself and get well soon.
Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes.
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Jeez that's some post. Hope all continues to go in the right direction for you.
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Kind offer. I think I'm supposed to refrain for 6 weeks though
Even bland can be a type of character
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Meant to say: since 'outing' about it on TRC, I'm really grateful for supportive comments and PMs. Thanks, folks.
A rellie met the Hairy Bikers yesterday, so I got a GWS from them too
Bike sold, sadly. Foal wants the hifi and probably BBQ too.
Even bland can be a type of character
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Yes, scary.
But I also had your grief in mind when posting, hope it's improving.
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Bloody hell!!
Actually, makes me feel a whole lot better.
Not to derail the thread, I have early onset Foraminal Cervical Spinal Stenosis, which is basically that the spinal canal has started to narrow and pinch on the nerves, causing all sorts of nerve problems, pain all the way to losing bladder control etc. I had issues that I went to a chiropactor for, and they told me that something wasn’t right. I paid for a MRI, and voila!
Had an injection into the spinal column to try and relieve some of the numbness/ tingling I was having in my right arm. I thought it would be pretty straight forward until the bloke giving the injection whipped out what looked like a 6 incher (needle) and told me to lay on my back. I then asked, “if you’re injecting into my spine, how are you going to get to it, if i’m on my back?” The reply “i’m going in through your throat, moving the muscles to the side and injecting into the spinal column using the x-ray machine”
Queue, lots of swear words from me, but as he was holding the sharp pointy thing, i sh*t out and became suitably compliant.
Me, not happy, then had to remain as still as hell for at least and hour (well, a good 5 mins) while he dug around using a 2 ft needle (obviously for the benefit of the story, it will get more exaggerated) before injecting me, with what i can only describe as ‘fire taken straight from the arse of hades’. I have never felt such excruciating pain, in my life, including childbirth! (Ok, so that’s meant to be bad, but being a bloke, maybe it was 100 times worse than manflu)
I actually thought my right arm was going to explode! But, as the bloke had a 6ft needle piercing my throat, in my spinal column, i thought it a bit unwise to a) scream like a baby. b) cry like a baby. c) erupt from what i was imagining was the autopsy slab and run out of the room, with said 15ft needle protruding from my neck waving my hands in the air, doing both a) and b).
In shock, i refused to get up when he told me it was all over 6 hours later (ok, the 5 mins) and when i was helped off the slab by the nurse, i pottered off towards the door, (totally forgetting i was naked from the waist up) to feel sorry for myself and make my way home.
P.s. the injection did seem to work, as my symptoms have been dramatically reduced since the injection, meaning surgery can wait.
Sorry, i guess that did derail the thread somewhat, i’ll delete it if you want?
Actually, makes me feel a whole lot better.
Not to derail the thread, I have early onset Foraminal Cervical Spinal Stenosis, which is basically that the spinal canal has started to narrow and pinch on the nerves, causing all sorts of nerve problems, pain all the way to losing bladder control etc. I had issues that I went to a chiropactor for, and they told me that something wasn’t right. I paid for a MRI, and voila!
Had an injection into the spinal column to try and relieve some of the numbness/ tingling I was having in my right arm. I thought it would be pretty straight forward until the bloke giving the injection whipped out what looked like a 6 incher (needle) and told me to lay on my back. I then asked, “if you’re injecting into my spine, how are you going to get to it, if i’m on my back?” The reply “i’m going in through your throat, moving the muscles to the side and injecting into the spinal column using the x-ray machine”
Queue, lots of swear words from me, but as he was holding the sharp pointy thing, i sh*t out and became suitably compliant.
Me, not happy, then had to remain as still as hell for at least and hour (well, a good 5 mins) while he dug around using a 2 ft needle (obviously for the benefit of the story, it will get more exaggerated) before injecting me, with what i can only describe as ‘fire taken straight from the arse of hades’. I have never felt such excruciating pain, in my life, including childbirth! (Ok, so that’s meant to be bad, but being a bloke, maybe it was 100 times worse than manflu)
I actually thought my right arm was going to explode! But, as the bloke had a 6ft needle piercing my throat, in my spinal column, i thought it a bit unwise to a) scream like a baby. b) cry like a baby. c) erupt from what i was imagining was the autopsy slab and run out of the room, with said 15ft needle protruding from my neck waving my hands in the air, doing both a) and b).
In shock, i refused to get up when he told me it was all over 6 hours later (ok, the 5 mins) and when i was helped off the slab by the nurse, i pottered off towards the door, (totally forgetting i was naked from the waist up) to feel sorry for myself and make my way home.
P.s. the injection did seem to work, as my symptoms have been dramatically reduced since the injection, meaning surgery can wait.
Sorry, i guess that did derail the thread somewhat, i’ll delete it if you want?
- Skub
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
You'll be well tricked out and radical by the time this is all over Horse.
Can you ask for any carbon fibre bits on the outside,so everyone can see you are a special edition Horse?
Keep getting better man.
Edit...you too Nordboy. This thread is pretty horrific!
Can you ask for any carbon fibre bits on the outside,so everyone can see you are a special edition Horse?
Keep getting better man.
Edit...you too Nordboy. This thread is pretty horrific!
"Be kind to past versions of yourself that didn't know what you know now."
Walt Whitman
https://soundcloud.com/skub1955
Walt Whitman
https://soundcloud.com/skub1955
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
no need
Filly has neck problems and has had a couple of those jabs so I know, from how she is afterwards, that it is nasty.
Filly has neck problems and has had a couple of those jabs so I know, from how she is afterwards, that it is nasty.
Last edited by Horse on Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
No CF, only plastic and foam
Depending on how screws heal and bones fuse, it's 'home' for up to 6 months.
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Fookin ell.
So much for the "jump" idea then.....
Had no idea, fingers crossed for you and Nordboy!
This motorcycling fad is dangerous!
So much for the "jump" idea then.....
Had no idea, fingers crossed for you and Nordboy!
This motorcycling fad is dangerous!
non quod, sed quomodo
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Bloody hell Horse, I have liked those 2 posts but I don't really like it at all.
Hope you heal quick, and that Phase 2 goes well too
Hope you heal quick, and that Phase 2 goes well too
Cornish Tart #1
Remember An Gof!
Remember An Gof!
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Soon after I talked to someone who had been in a similar crash. He went sideways and had broken pelvis.
I always said that the difficult bit was landing
Martial arts training might help. Or an airbag jacket.
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Horse, did they give you a longterm outlook? They told me that neck surgery is a last resort as once you start surgery it can displace the issue frther up or down the spine and it can mean more and more surgery.
Or is yours very specific? To an area or problem? Is it degenerative or can it be fixed i mean?
Your issue is obviously much more severe than mine, hence the offer to delete my post and that I didn’t want to derail your thread.
Good luck, hope it all gets sorted for you.
(Btw, thanks for the well wishes, but i’m pretty good, still riding bikes and tbh, while it did cause me lots of pain and issues initially, i’m doing well, and at the moment i’m living a normal pain free life)
Or is yours very specific? To an area or problem? Is it degenerative or can it be fixed i mean?
Your issue is obviously much more severe than mine, hence the offer to delete my post and that I didn’t want to derail your thread.
Good luck, hope it all gets sorted for you.
(Btw, thanks for the well wishes, but i’m pretty good, still riding bikes and tbh, while it did cause me lots of pain and issues initially, i’m doing well, and at the moment i’m living a normal pain free life)
- Horse
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
Both my issues are congenital, just been lucky to get a delay (although some people never know or experience problems).
Surgery for the Chiari is to try and reduce symptoms, but no promises.
It's also to try and create room for the brainstem. If it has, then op2 won't be needed.
However, if not and I don't have it, then there is the risk of permanent damage, with similar outcomes to yours (any bladder problems? has been a regular question). I already have altered nerve action to my legs (altered gait, another of your potential symptoms) and my knee reflexes are over compensating.
Does that answer it sufficiently?
Surgery for the Chiari is to try and reduce symptoms, but no promises.
It's also to try and create room for the brainstem. If it has, then op2 won't be needed.
However, if not and I don't have it, then there is the risk of permanent damage, with similar outcomes to yours (any bladder problems? has been a regular question). I already have altered nerve action to my legs (altered gait, another of your potential symptoms) and my knee reflexes are over compensating.
Does that answer it sufficiently?
Even bland can be a type of character
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Re: CV Junction 2 - titanium upgrade
And as an attention whore I'm quite content that you keep bouncing this thread up the board
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