American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

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Hoonercat
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American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Hoonercat »

I should probably start by saying thast I've owned bullbreeds for 17 years, fostered literally dozens of them, been a director of a UK rescue that specialized in bullbreeds and currently own an Ambull/AmStaff cross and a Cane Corso cross (amongst a pack of mainly mongrels). And I don't agree with the Pitbull portion of Breed Specific Legislation.

But I do agree with banning XL Bullies. They should have been banned before even one ever set paw on British soil. When I say 'agree', what I actually mean is that successive UK govts have shown themselves to be completely incapable of dealing with dangerous dogs, relying on knee-jerk reactions instead of doing what the French did and actually listen to people who know what they are talking about and implementing their suggestions. But a ban is the best we're going to get, and something has to be done.

A few decades ago, American breeders thought it would be a good idea to breed Pitbulls with AmStaffs (a Pitbull offshoot) to create the 'perfect family pet). Over time, they began to mix in other breeds to gain size (Old Tyme English Bulldog, American Bulldog). I've only fostered on OTEB and never again, I found it to be very skittish and unpredictable. Ambulls are also skittish and generally not good with strangers and very protective of their owners and property. IMHO, mixing either of these breeds with a Pitbull/Ambull mix is lunacy. UK breeders have gone a step further in their quest for size, mixing in dogs such as the Cane Corso and the Presa Canario (both top-tier personel protection dogs with a mistrust of stranger). In sort, the XL is a 'breed' that originated from dogs with insane amounts of stamina and pain threshold, whose main purpose was to fight other dogs, and then mixed with breeds who, for the most part, have been bred to protect people and property from other people. And they're being sold as family pets. :crazy:

A man was attacked and killed by 2 XL Bullies during the week. Someone actually stood there and filmed some of it, instead of trying to help. I haven't seen the video,but I know someone in rescue who has, and she said she's never seen anything like it. Those 2 dogs were more like lions, they were eating the chunks that they tore off him while he was still alive but unconcious. A neighbour who arrived home after the attack was advised by the police not to look in that direction as there was human 'debris' scattered around the area. A witness said the attack last 15-20 minutes. That kind of ferocity and time duration is completely off the scale for any breed of dog, let alone a 'family pet'. Just days before the attack, the owner was bragging on FB about how he was 'building lions'. Alongside pictures of these 2 dogs with his young child. Today I came across the story of another young lad recently mauled by XL Bullies in Scotland. These dogs had been living in the home for 2 years, were perfect 'family pets' and then, completely out of the blue, mauled the child. I've been following alot of these attacks and it's almost always the same story, loyal family pets who suddenly turn without warning.

There is something genetically wrong with these dogs. There only appears to be an issue with the 'XL' version of the dog, which to my mind strongly suggests the breeding with large guarding breeds has completely messed them up. The reason I mentionedy ownership of an AmBull and Cane Corso mix is because they were both very difficult dogs to train and due to their genetic make-up, they are not good with strangers. The Cane Corso mix in particular is an oddity, she absolutely loves people but if I have visitors she has to be locked away for 20 minutes until she calms down. I watch her body language; if someone arrives at the gate unannounced, I can see that she is absolutely desperate to greet the person (if she knows them) but she cannot overide her genetic trait to guard. The difference is that her behaviour is predictable; it's what she was designed to do so it is easy to manage - predictable is good. All over the UK there are families with XL Bullies who IMHO are highly unpredictable, and the people who own them have no idea of the genetic make-up within their 'family pet'.

But all that is only part of the problem. The link below should sent the fear of God through anyone who owns an XL, or indeed anyone who comes into contact with the breed, given how regularly I've heard of incidences where they are off-lead in public places.
'Killer Kimbo', once known simply as Kimbo until it became apparent that his bloodline was responsible for so many attacks on humans.The dog was in-bred to create size, but he was also human aggressive. His offsprings, carrying his genes, were also inter-bred, as were their offsprings. And according to research by Bully Watch, of the 50 ads they looked into which were selling pups in the UK, 32 of those come from Killer Kimbo's bloodline :thumbdown:

Why are DEFRA or the police not doing this kind of research? Why are they not holding these breeders accountable for breeding dogs that should never be bred from? And most importantly, why are the govt not willing to do more than simply ban breeds long after the damage has been done? Why not follow the example of France, where all breeders have to be registered, where anyone wishing to breed more than one litter has to undergo training, have site visits, pay tax on their sales and ensure that every dog sold can be traced back to each individual breeder?
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Taff »

Nice to see a sensible balanced view from experience, I've seen so many FB posts saying that 'my boy is so gentle' blah blah, and believing that every XL is from the same stock.

There's a family at the end of our street that bred a litter maybe a year ago, mother is XL bully, dad is Rottweiler X staff. If there's ever a combination that's going to end in tears it's right there. MrsTaff said that she saw some of the pups getting picked up early in the morning and the customers were obviously marching powder retailers.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Le_Fromage_Grande »

The problem is that it's very difficult to legislate to prevent the behaviour of fuckwits, this breed of dog is the product of humans, why anyone wants to own any dog that can be dangerous is beyond me, there are plenty of safe dog breeds, there are plenty of safe guard dog breeds.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Cousin Jack »

Dog breeds have genetic traits, we had a beage/foxterrier cross. Fantastic friendly dog, but was never off the lead unless you were within 5 yards of him. Any further than that he would pick up the scent of a rabbit or fox, look at you, and you could see his thought process. " Yes, they are far enough away, I can pretend I didnt hear them". And then he was gone, to return 4 or 5 hours later, filthy and with his ears in tatters.
Similarly herding dogs herd, good sheep dogs may be friendly, but as pets they get bored, and slope off to find something to herd, like cyclists or cats.
Breeding dogs like XL Bullies was always going to end in tears.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Solution is obvious, ban fuckwits.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Cousin Jack »

A cull of fuckwits would be a very large undertaking.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Le_Fromage_Grande »

Cousin Jack wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:01 pm A cull of fuckwits would be a very large undertaking.
But would solve most of the world's problems, trouble is, selective breeding for humans can be an emotive subject
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by DefTrap »

Banning the breed seems like the only solution. I'm against banning but Hooner's description of the XL being like a fecking lion puts it in context maybe.
Having a proper license/test for ownership so that fuckwits can't own dogs sounds ok in theory. But is this too hard on the vast majority who've done nothing wrong? It works for driving licenses after all.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

We did actually have dog licences in the UK didn't we, but that was more like a dog tax disc than any kind of ownership test?

BTW I only know about UK dog licences cause they were part of my Post Office play set circa 1989 :D
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Noggin »

I do wonder if the licence thing would help. But, then the government would have to put it into practice and create a department to manage it. And we all know how useless they are at that!!

And, the question then comes up. For those that have dogs but don't fulfil the licence requirements, what do you do? Remove the dog? Put the dog down? It's hardly the dogs fault (normal dogs, not the XLBullys)


Owners and breeders are responsible for most issues and from the first post here, definitely in this case. So this is totally stable door after horse has bolted.

The breeders have created a breed that isn't safe and will sell them to people that don't have any inclination to train them properly or understand exactly what they have bought.

Darwin is in action again - sadly people that are not involved will suffer as well
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by MingtheMerciless »

Hoonercat wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:38 am Why are DEFRA or the police not doing this kind of research? Why are they not holding these breeders accountable for breeding dogs that should never be bred from? And most importantly, why are the govt not willing to do more than simply ban breeds long after the damage has been done? Why not follow the example of France, where all breeders have to be registered, where anyone wishing to breed more than one litter has to undergo training, have site visits, pay tax on their sales and ensure that every dog sold can be traced back to each individual breeder?
Because its easier to ban (and cheaper) and once again the problem is kicked down the road for a decade or so until the evil breeders and those wanting a status dog find another breed to fuck up.

Dog warden is very low on the council budget and up until a few weeks ago Dangerous Dogs wasn't really on the Police's radar either. Aside from the banned breeds the Dangerous Dogs Act has some pretty stiff penalties for a dog acting to cause alarm or injury in a public place (also now in private in some circumstances). Also its up to 14 years in prison if your dog kills someone. If the Act was enforced properly in the past, with the stiff penalties issued then maybe it would have filtered down to the idiots that a "status" dog wasn't for them, but as usual there neither the budget or the civic willpower to do anything until a few people die.

A proper dog ownership responsibility system with compulsory registration, training etc that is correctly enforced, ie don't penalise the those responsible owners but actively seek out and prosecute (with eye wincing penalties rather than slaps on the wrist) the fuckwits with an amended DDA would go a long way to solving the issue but that's far harder and more expensive than just banning something.

I was initially against banning the breed but telling the difference between the genetic fuckups and the healthy stock would probably be impossible. Reading HC's post I'm not even sure I'm comfortable with responsible owners being allowed to keep neutered dogs, muzzled and leaded in public places till their end of their life. Once again this is scummy human beings fucking up something for their own sick ends.

For the record we have 4 Staffies.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by cheb »

A strain registering lead connected to radio linked explosive collars on the dog, the owner and the person holding the lead. If too much pull is detected then boom, problem solved.

I'm not too fussed about false positives either. I'd like a similar system for small dogs but linked to their yapping.

Oh, you don't really like dogs do you? Not really, especially when they try to sniff me, jump up at me, lick me, bark at me for the simple reason I exist and happen to be withing a 50 yards of them, when their owners can't bothered picking up after them, or if they do assume that the shit fairies will remove the bag from the tree.

I love fireworks though.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Mr. Dazzle »

Yeah when a dog starts humping your leg, trying to lick you and sniffing you he "just wants to play", but when I do it....
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by DefTrap »

cheb wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:45 pm A strain registering lead connected to radio linked explosive collars on the dog, the owner and the person holding the lead. If too much pull is detected then boom, problem solved.

I'm not too fussed about false positives either. I'd like a similar system for small dogs but linked to their yapping.

Oh, you don't really like dogs do you? Not really, especially when they try to sniff me, jump up at me, lick me, bark at me for the simple reason I exist and happen to be withing a 50 yards of them, when their owners can't bothered picking up after them, or if they do assume that the shit fairies will remove the bag from the tree.

I love fireworks though.
I feel the same tbh, but it turns out that's a really unpopular opinion and people often take it as personally as if you'd said they have an ugly child, so I try to keep it to myself.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by cheb »

TBF that's slightly overblown for humourous reasons but it'd nice if slightly more dog owners understood not everyone likes dogs.

I'm not entirely convinced about pet ownership in general. I like the concept of having a cat but understand that they are vicious slayers of wildlife and a major reason for the decline of bird populations out here. Suggesting a mass cull of cats isn't a popular move. Then there's the problem of them shitting wherever they choose too.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by KungFooBob »

cheb wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:26 pm Then there's the problem of them shitting wherever they choose too.
Yup, my four come into the house to shit in the litter tray, then go back out again. I've told them they're supposed to shit in next doors garden, but they're having none of it.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by MingtheMerciless »

cheb wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:45 pm A strain registering lead connected to radio linked explosive collars on the dog, the owner and the person holding the lead. If too much pull is detected then boom, problem solved.

I'm not too fussed about false positives either. I'd like a similar system for small dogs but linked to their yapping.

Oh, you don't really like dogs do you? Not really, especially when they try to sniff me, jump up at me, lick me, bark at me for the simple reason I exist and happen to be withing a 50 yards of them, when their owners can't bothered picking up after them, or if they do assume that the shit fairies will remove the bag from the tree.
I feel the same way about obnoxious kids and their parents, though exploding collars would be a second offence punishment, 10 lashes each for the first offence.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by Horse »

MingtheMerciless wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:17 pm


I was initially against banning the breed but telling the difference between the genetic fuckups and the healthy stock would probably be impossible. Reading HC's post I'm not even sure I'm comfortable with responsible owners being allowed to keep neutered dogs, muzzled and leaded in public places till their end of their life. Once again this is scummy human beings fucking up something for their own sick ends.
Filly heard someone interviewed on R4. He was making all the usual it's not the dogs, it's the owners" noises.

Then said, "but with this breed, I'll make an exception. Ban them."
Even bland can be a type of character :wave:
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by cheb »

MingtheMerciless wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:46 pm
cheb wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:45 pm A strain registering lead connected to radio linked explosive collars on the dog, the owner and the person holding the lead. If too much pull is detected then boom, problem solved.

I'm not too fussed about false positives either. I'd like a similar system for small dogs but linked to their yapping.

Oh, you don't really like dogs do you? Not really, especially when they try to sniff me, jump up at me, lick me, bark at me for the simple reason I exist and happen to be withing a 50 yards of them, when their owners can't bothered picking up after them, or if they do assume that the shit fairies will remove the bag from the tree.
I feel the same way about obnoxious kids and their parents, though exploding collars would be a second offence punishment, 10 lashes each for the first offence.
So do I. And yes.
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Re: American XL Bully ban and Killer Kimbo

Post by MyLittleStudPony »

T'Bully XL, t'Bully XL!

Seriously though, they're not very chattering classes are they? Whenever I see one it's always owned by an incredible scummer.