Grip, grip, grip...

[tricol]

I fear I may know the answer to this one...

I've been out twice this year so far, and I know the conditions of the roads are less than favourable. I didn't feel very confident with leaning the bike, and carrying corner speed, as much as I tried to work on slowing well before the corner, having light throttle through the corner, and out the other side without ending up in a hedge. Last Sunday I took a scoot up the famous A537 from Macclesfield, up passed the Cat'n'Fiddle, and down into Buxton. Now on the way up this nice road, there are several tight hairpins, and plenty of tightening corners. I was followed by a chap who seemed to be able rail the corners like it was 25deg in the middle of summer. I just could not commit myself. He didn't seem to making little effort, so it is tyre thing, is it a body position thing, or am I doing it all wrong? He would be 5 seconds behind me before a corner, and 2 seconds after.

Incidentally, I have the same confidence issues on the MTB, I just can't seem to put faith in the tyre.

Before I get the usual book of taking up some coaching thrown at me, are there other things I can practice when on the bike to help have a bit more confidence on the side of the tyre? I'm not looking to get my knee down, I just want to be comfortable on the bike.

[mangocrazy]

First the caveats - 1) I may be teaching my Granny to suck eggs here, in which case my apologies. 2) I have done all these things wrong myself. For me the most important thing is to be relaxed on the bike, not an easy thing to manage when you're cold and have someone faster up your chuff. What I mean is not to have a death grip on the bars or be gripping the tank between your knees at all times. A rule of thumb I was given is that you should always be able to waggle your elbows when riding - you can't do this if you're gripping the bars too tightly. In reality your left hand should be resting on the bars and your right hand gripping the throttle only just enough to stop it rolling shut. Being relaxed means that you are allowing the bike to self-correct, which it's actually very good at doing. Gripping too tightly stops the bike from doing that and also amplifies the feedback you are getting from the bike to an unnecessary degree.

There are all sorts of other stuff you can do, but I'll leave that to the experts.

[Ditchfinder]

I have the same confidence issues tricol, always worse in the Spring.

Usually just before it gets to the point where it's time to put the bike in the shed for winter I have built up enough miles to get a better feel and relax.

I find the softly sprung Triumph easier to ride in cold less than perfect conditions and with low confidence but when I get warmed up later in the year the more direct feel of the Guzzi is much better. I still don't think I use much more than the middle 50% of the tyre even on a good day

MTB is the same for - at the beginning of the year I ride like Bambi on roller skates and twitch as soon as I start to feel traction starting to break, by mid summer happy to let things float and slide a little and relax.

[The Spin Doctor]

Bit tied up today finishing up a presentation ready for a RoSPA group in Uffington on Sunday so I'll just leave this here for you to think about...

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Do a trackday, going round and round the same bit of safe grippy road all day will let you learn how much you can trust your tyres, don't worry about not being fast enough, in Novice group it doesn't matter, track wise I wouldn't pick Donington for my first track day, it has a lot of high speed bends that can be a bit daunting, Cadwell is more like a British country road.

[dern]

I'd echo the track day recommendation, it'll give you a new perspective on what's possible.

I'd also recommend an IAM course. Doing that improved my riding and confidence hugely even though I'd been riding for more than 20 years at that point. Your attention moves to reading the road layout rather than fretting to much about what grip is available as most of the time it'll be more than you need.

I have never been a natural rider and have always had doubts and anxiety while riding but loved it so much and ploughed through. Doing trackdays and the IAM course has transformed my riding and the enjoyment element has gone through the roof.

[tricol]

Yea, I'm going to the Pembrey trackday in September, so hopefully I can use that experience to gain a lot of confidence. Unless it's pissing down

Thanks for all the replies, I knew I could count on the RTTL massive.

[tricol]

I have never been a natural rider

Oddly, I do feel really at home on two wheels. It's a fear/confidence issue. Also, time off the bike over the winter, and I do need to realise I have only been riding a year, despite hacking about on scooters for years when I was younger.

[Horse]

be relaxed on the bike not to have a death grip on the bars
gripping the tank between your knees
Being relaxed means that you are allowing the bike to self-correct, which it's actually very good at doing.
Gripping too tightly

That's a really good summary. 'Being cold' is a good point too.

If you ride MTBs then you'll be more used to loose surfaces than I ever was.

So, what can you try? If it is - and this presumes no bike issues (bearings, tyres, etc) - then alter your set up for bends:

As well as slowing, make a conscious decision to slow a bit more and a bit sooner (actually, to slow down more, you'll need more space, so make that sooner sooner.

Why do that?

One thing to introduce is a self-check for tension:
- shoulders relaxed, elbows low and loose, light grip on the bars.
You can't 'relax' to order, instead tense and release. Do the elbow waggle. All this takes roadspace.

Next, as you're slower, you will need to be positive on the throttle. Again, this needs to be on the straight, before the bend.

That's got you and the bike ready.

At the start of the corner, really point your chin where you want to go to. Gently press the bar, 'dropping' the inside shoulder can help.

Slow, Settle, Steer


But there's another thing to do: practise all this on good roads. Make it a natural part of your riding rather than creating a two-stage, grippy or slippy choice of riding style.

[slowsider]

Yea, I'm going to the Pembrey trackday in September, so hopefully I can use that experience to gain a lot of confidence. Unless it's pissing down

You might find that pissing down is more helpful - your dry trackday confidence may leave you anxious on damp roads...

[Rockburner]

I have never been a natural rider

Oddly, I do feel really at home on two wheels. It's a fear/confidence issue. Also, time off the bike over the winter, and I do need to realise I have only been riding a year, despite hacking about on scooters for years when I was younger.

IIRC you're not a kid, and as you say, only been riding a year?

Don't put pressure on yourself to ride like other people. You have NO idea what their level of skill/experience is, nor their level of acceptable risk: ie: how far they're happy (consciously or unconsciously) to push it.

Ride your own ride and grow your confidence at your own pace.

By all means take in external advice (from what you read, what you hear from other riders, what you pay for via IAM/trackdays), but always give that advice due consideration and figure out how it applies to you and your riding.

[Count Steer]

Slightly 'off the wall' but I did the Yamaha off-road thing a few times somewhere on the South Downs (?? Barn?) on Yam WR400 and WR 250 types of thing. Once I'd had the front and back end slithering about in the mud, steering with the throttle etc it gave me a lot more confidence, knowing that loss of grip wasn't necessarily a prelude to hitting the deck. (You don't particularly need lots of experience to do it. One chap had been given a 'Red Letter Day' type gift and he'd never ridden a bike before).

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

You only need to put your foot down when you stop and you can stop for a while before you need to put your foot down, I've got a 29" inside leg and I'm perfectly happy on full size enduro bikes.

[Trinity765]

Slightly 'off the wall' but I did the Yamaha off-road thing a few times somewhere on the South Downs (?? Barn?) on Yam WR400 and WR 250 types of thing. Once I'd had the front and back end slithering about in the mud, steering with the throttle etc it gave me a lot more confidence, knowing that loss of grip wasn't necessarily a prelude to hitting the deck. (You don't particularly need lots of experience to do it. One chap had been given a 'Red Letter Day' type gift and he'd never ridden a bike before).

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

Yamaha Experience days at Golding Barn raceway.

[Count Steer]

Slightly 'off the wall' but I did the Yamaha off-road thing a few times somewhere on the South Downs (?? Barn?) on Yam WR400 and WR 250 types of thing. Once I'd had the front and back end slithering about in the mud, steering with the throttle etc it gave me a lot more confidence, knowing that loss of grip wasn't necessarily a prelude to hitting the deck. (You don't particularly need lots of experience to do it. One chap had been given a 'Red Letter Day' type gift and he'd never ridden a bike before).

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

Yamaha Experience days at Golding Barn raceway.

That's the one

Really good day out.

[Trinity765]

Slightly 'off the wall' but I did the Yamaha off-road thing a few times somewhere on the South Downs (?? Barn?) on Yam WR400 and WR 250 types of thing. Once I'd had the front and back end slithering about in the mud, steering with the throttle etc it gave me a lot more confidence, knowing that loss of grip wasn't necessarily a prelude to hitting the deck. (You don't particularly need lots of experience to do it. One chap had been given a 'Red Letter Day' type gift and he'd never ridden a bike before).

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

Yamaha Experience days at Golding Barn raceway.

That's the one

Really good day out.

A bit off topic, soz, but I got half a day there on a DT400 with big wheels - someone phoned me at work and said "Can you get down here quick for a freebie". I was there in 10 minutes - had a great time.

To bring this back on topic - everything above is great advise. I've been riding 20 years and still don't know how much grip I have. Riding in the wet actually helps as then it's more about being relaxed, being smooth, anticipation and observation. I've been lucky enough to lose grip a couple of times over accelerating out of a corners and not crashed - that's when I've said to myself "back off before something worse happens". Now I've got a bike with all the toys, I worry that I won't get those little warnings.

[slowsider]

Slightly 'off the wall' but I did the Yamaha off-road thing a few times somewhere on the South Downs (?? Barn?) on Yam WR400 and WR 250 types of thing. Once I'd had the front and back end slithering about in the mud, steering with the throttle etc it gave me a lot more confidence, knowing that loss of grip wasn't necessarily a prelude to hitting the deck. (You don't particularly need lots of experience to do it. One chap had been given a 'Red Letter Day' type gift and he'd never ridden a bike before).

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

PS It also showed that you don't have to be 6ft+ to ride tall bikes.

Yamaha Experience days at Golding Barn raceway.

That's the one

Really good day out.

Gone orange now.

https://ktmmxexperience.co.uk/golding-barn-west-sussex/

[Horse]

Not suggesting that you ride like that on the road but it is confidence building pushing the limits in relative safety.

As a slightly left field (as opposed to muddy field) training suggestion:

https://i2imca.com/Home/CoursesMachineControl

[Count Steer]

Yamaha Experience days at Golding Barn raceway.

That's the one

Really good day out.

Gone orange now.

https://ktmmxexperience.co.uk/golding-barn-west-sussex/

Same instructor though. Barry or 'Barroi' to give him his own accent. I'm sure the KTMs are just as good fun. Got a photo somewhere of me getting 'big' air over the table top jump. Grip? What grip

Certainly the experience helped when me and Hairy Ben wandered along some rather muddy rutted tracks on one of our 'wonder what's up that road' excursions. It also helps break the compulsion to brake if things get a little slippy.

[The Spin Doctor]

Obviously, my point in the video went over everyones' head.

How do we know that the rider going faster round a bend than we are isn't actually right on the edge of losing grip?

Assuming that someone else is 'better' because they are quicker isn't always the right answer.

It's one thing to think "maybe I could go faster" and something totally different to think "that rider's showing me how fast I should go"...

...and I didn't even mention the need to stop in a mid-corner emergency.