It seems KTM put up the base 890 details by accident and Google cached them. Gives a bit of a clue as to what to expect at least. Someone on the 790 Facebook group managed to find it. Doesn't look like all the fancy electronics of the 790 come for free with this one!
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... bqcMREygEA
890 Duke Base model
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Taipan
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Good find! 
I thought KTM were still sorting out issues with the 790 engine? A return to form with KTM for moving on and wiggling out of warranty claims on the older engine no doubt. Shower...
I thought KTM were still sorting out issues with the 790 engine? A return to form with KTM for moving on and wiggling out of warranty claims on the older engine no doubt. Shower...
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weeksy
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Tricky
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weeksy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Now see, we've had conflicting information there, i still get told they're there on the 20 790s. I almost found out on the 4th as i nearly debated buying one, well, i did debate it... but decided against it.
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Tricky
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Yeah, remember having this conversation when I got my 890 - the tech and track packs are not included as standard on the 2020 790, or at least at Premier they aren't 
- Darren swears that they have been since day one on the 790, I told him he was wrong, he wouldn't have it though!
- Darren swears that they have been since day one on the 790, I told him he was wrong, he wouldn't have it though!-
Supermofo
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
By sorting do you mean sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending they don't know what you are talking about. Nothing to see here, shiney shiney
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mangocrazy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
How is it that these engine issues get to production models with all the (alleged) pre-production testing that gets done? Are they simply not replicating what Joe Public does with their bikes, or what?
And how do other folk get on with the wide handlebars that KTM stick on their bikes? I really didn't like the stock bars on my Duke 690 R - they were giving me pains in wrist and elbows after a moderate length ride (50-70 miles) and were causing me to put too much input into the steering. In the end I had to design and fabricate some replacement bars and get them welded up and powder coated. Much happier now.
And how do other folk get on with the wide handlebars that KTM stick on their bikes? I really didn't like the stock bars on my Duke 690 R - they were giving me pains in wrist and elbows after a moderate length ride (50-70 miles) and were causing me to put too much input into the steering. In the end I had to design and fabricate some replacement bars and get them welded up and powder coated. Much happier now.
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Supermofo
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
I'm guessing KTM design an engine and accept a % of issues as acceptable. So some people have no issues whereas others get stung.
As for bars, I've done 12k miles on my 690 and find them really comfortable. Done some 5-6 hours rides with short breaks without issues. So guess its a personal preference thing. They are high and wide but I like em.
As for bars, I've done 12k miles on my 690 and find them really comfortable. Done some 5-6 hours rides with short breaks without issues. So guess its a personal preference thing. They are high and wide but I like em.
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Its really really hard to make a robust reliable product, its a numbers game as much as anything.
Think of a project you've done at home....anything at all really. Even changing a plug. Was it 100% perfect every time?
Even if you get 99.99% perfection on each bike part, there are still thousands of parts on each bike. If there are a thousand items with 99.99% perfection you'd still expect 1 in 10 bikes to have something wrong.
There are more than a thousand things on a bike (and remember "doing up a bolt" counts as a thing in this context) and there are lots of bikes. 99.99% perfection is also quite an ambitious target.
Now obviously KTM et al are aware of all this and there are all kinds of tools and processes to help. Lots and lots of dry stats and spreadsheets. Some companies are better than others of course.
Think of a project you've done at home....anything at all really. Even changing a plug. Was it 100% perfect every time?
Even if you get 99.99% perfection on each bike part, there are still thousands of parts on each bike. If there are a thousand items with 99.99% perfection you'd still expect 1 in 10 bikes to have something wrong.
There are more than a thousand things on a bike (and remember "doing up a bolt" counts as a thing in this context) and there are lots of bikes. 99.99% perfection is also quite an ambitious target.
Now obviously KTM et al are aware of all this and there are all kinds of tools and processes to help. Lots and lots of dry stats and spreadsheets. Some companies are better than others of course.
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weeksy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Yes but, they've had 2 issues for 3 years now. Sprocket output shaft seal and rocker cover gasket. I understand that early on you get things, but 3 years in, same issue, same fix. Meh.
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
It will take more than a year to identify the fix, let alone implement it. Consider for example that I'm currently working on car stuff for a vehcile going on sale in 2025.
Also, what garauntees do you have that you won't just introduce a new fault by changing stuff? Better the devil you know.
There is also the "fight club maths"....it may be cheaper to just fix the issues.
Also, what garauntees do you have that you won't just introduce a new fault by changing stuff? Better the devil you know.
There is also the "fight club maths"....it may be cheaper to just fix the issues.
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Oh....and anything involving seals and gaskets is notoriously hard to diagnose.
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weeksy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Well yes, but. They then get fixed by dealers and don't happen again.Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:53 am Oh....and anything involving seals and gaskets is notoriously hard to diagnose.
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
That's the stats at work to a certain extent. If 99% are OK it's quite unlikely to get 2 duff ones.
May also be the case that the factory has already got the "old" seals for the next 5 years and they need to use them up, or that they're stuck in negotiations with the seal manufacturer over who should pay for the newer, more expensive, seals etc. etc.
May also be the case that the factory has already got the "old" seals for the next 5 years and they need to use them up, or that they're stuck in negotiations with the seal manufacturer over who should pay for the newer, more expensive, seals etc. etc.
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weeksy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
I get you. But it cost them £7500 last week as I didn't buy a 790 with those 2 issues being massive factors. Tricky would still have his 890R if it wasn't for his issues. Surely there comes a time you have to think about it.Mr. Dazzle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:02 pm That's the stats at work to a certain extent. If 99% are OK it's quite unlikely to get 2 duff ones.
May also be the case that the factory has already got the "old" seals for the next 5 years and they need to use them up, or that they're stuck in negotiations with the seal manufacturer over who should pay for the newer, more expensive, seals etc. etc.
I think KTM are very fortunate that many riders buy into the whole Orange thing and forgive more than they would if it were another manufacturer.
In some ways I still see myself as a KTM rider, but whether I'll go back to one is open to debate.
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Supermofo
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Yup its cost KTM another buyer as I've pretty much written off a 790 as my next bike after my 690. I've lived with the impending rocker arms of doom hanging over my head and accepted that, partly as the 690 means something to me and I give it more leeway than I would another bike.
But to hear the 790 still suffers the oils leaks, coolant leaks and some engine failures with no updates at all since launch has made me look back to Jap bikes. Teething trouble I get but by years 2 and 3 I'm expecting issues to have been resolved. I might over look it of I was buying new and swapping within warranty but I'd prefer to get to know bikes for a while
But to hear the 790 still suffers the oils leaks, coolant leaks and some engine failures with no updates at all since launch has made me look back to Jap bikes. Teething trouble I get but by years 2 and 3 I'm expecting issues to have been resolved. I might over look it of I was buying new and swapping within warranty but I'd prefer to get to know bikes for a while
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
It only costs them money if someone else doesn't buy the bike instead of you. I have no idea what there sales volumes are like, but its not as straightforward as "I personally didn't buy the bike therefore KTM didn't sell it at all" is it?
I have no particular axe to grind in thus story, I'm just trying explain how something so "simple" as some leaky seals can be a nightmare to address.
If your average punter is aware of the problems and how "easy" they are to fix, how much do you think KTM are aware of?
I have no particular axe to grind in thus story, I'm just trying explain how something so "simple" as some leaky seals can be a nightmare to address.
If your average punter is aware of the problems and how "easy" they are to fix, how much do you think KTM are aware of?
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weeksy
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
I'd assume every warranty job has to be made through KTM hq as well as just dealer, well, I know that's the case as they bill KTM for labour etc.
So you'd assume KTM are very aware
So you'd assume KTM are very aware
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Mr. Dazzle
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Re: 890 Duke Base model
Yeah exactly, so they know how much it costs them but they haven't fixed it yet.
It could be that they are genuinely unable to. It could be that they have tried and failed. It could be that they have bigger quality issues you and I are not aware of they need to focus on.
Its also reasonably likely that they have updated the bike but jsit haven't said anything, that's pretty common.
Anyway...my point is, these kinds of problems are really really hard to solve, like I said in my opening post
It could be that they are genuinely unable to. It could be that they have tried and failed. It could be that they have bigger quality issues you and I are not aware of they need to focus on.
Its also reasonably likely that they have updated the bike but jsit haven't said anything, that's pretty common.
Anyway...my point is, these kinds of problems are really really hard to solve, like I said in my opening post