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Ask Me Anything
Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 pm
by Yorick
I've 15 years of trackday instructing experience, so feel free to ask me for help and advice on any aspect of track riding.
Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss online
Let's go ....
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:39 pm
by Dodgy69
What are the MOST important skills to improve to make us better track riders.?
Full indepth answers required.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:38 pm
by Le_Fromage_Grande
Is the beer expensive in the Canary Islands?
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:52 pm
by Yorick
Julian_Boolean wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:38 pm
Is the beer expensive in the Canary Islands?
All the beer in fridges is free. Pop over
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:28 pm
by Yorick
Dodgy knees wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:39 pm
What are the MOST important skills to improve to make us better track riders.?
Full indepth answers required.
I can't answer without seeing you ride. All are different.
Will take a book sized reply to fill all criteria. Just pick one subject.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 pm
by Dodgy69
Back brake...
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 pm
by Horse
It's often stated that going on a track day will improve road riding. Could you give some examples of this, and how it's helped by track instructors.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:53 pm
by Tricky
Horse wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 pm
It's often stated that going on a track day will improve road riding. Could you give some examples of this, and how it's helped by track instructors.
This is, of course, Yozza's thread, and I don't want to tread on his toes, but I feel qualified to answer the first part of your post, as I did competitively race for a few years, albeit a long time ago, and have done a few track days- the short answer, IMO, is that It can ( not necessarily absolutely will) improve road riding for most riders IF they have the right mindset, as it will cause them to get nearer their personal limits than they ever are likely to on the road, and their road-riding will benefit from that
In doing so, they are likely to have situations where they will push themselves beyond where they ever have on the road and force them to at least try to over-ride what might be considered by some as "natural" panic reactions
One example of this would be arriving at a corner faster than you think you should be, and forcing yourself to release the brake, look through the corner, lean it more and rely on tyre grip and the laws of physics to get you through the corner, rather than the usual novice approach of standing it up, trying to brake your way out of it and either running out of road or out of grip on the brakes.
Another example would be when someone overtakes you faster, or perhaps slightly closer than you are comfortable with, and you then not immediately panicking and grabbing the brakes/ sitting it up, or the like- - if you can get used to that (you have to if you ever want to go fast(ish) on a track), it will make you a better road rider as when the unexpected happens on the road, you are less likely to crash as the result of a panic-induced reaction, as you won't panic as much.
All above IMO, of course.
As for the second part of the question, I'm not qualified to answer, as I've never instructed, so I'll leave that to Yozza, or others who have / do.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 pm
by Yorick
Dodgy knees wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Back brake...
What for ? ???
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:16 am
by Nobby
Yorick wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 pm
Dodgy knees wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Back brake...
What for ? ???
scrutinering.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:53 am
by weeksy
Yorick wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 pm
Dodgy knees wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Back brake...
What for ? ???
Braking into corners ? HElping mid-corner control ? Helping on the way out to keep the front down ?
You wanted questions
you've got to give the answers.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:30 am
by Yorick
weeksy wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:53 am
Yorick wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:09 pm
Dodgy knees wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 pm
Back brake...
What for ? ???
Braking into corners ? HElping mid-corner control ? Helping on the way out to keep the front down ?
You wanted questions
you've got to give the answers.
I was asking him in what context.
I never used the back brake on track, apart from in the rain. I may have used it if I was racing, but 95% of braking power is from the front.
I can't think how rear brake can help mid corner really, as on right hand bends it's too hard to get your foot on the brake.
And it's easy to keep the front wheel down with the throttle and quicker.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:12 pm
by Horse
Tricky wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:53 pm
Horse wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 pm
It's often stated that going on a track day will improve road riding. Could you give some examples of this, and how it's helped by track instructors.
IMO, is that It can ( not necessarily absolutely will) improve road riding for most riders IF they have the right mindset, as it will cause them to get nearer their personal limits than they ever are likely to on the road, and their road-riding will benefit from that
In doing so, they are likely to have situations where they will push themselves beyond where they ever have on the road and force them to at least try to over-ride what might be considered by some as "natural" panic reactions
One example of this would be arriving at a corner faster than you think you should be, and forcing yourself to release the brake, look through the corner, lean it more and rely on tyre grip and the laws of physics to get you through the corner
Nah, you can achieve that in a car park!
- look.jpg (7.71 KiB) Viewed 4721 times
He binned it on-road the next day (while out with a different training company)
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:20 pm
by Couchy
Tricky wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:53 pm
Horse wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 pm
It's often stated that going on a track day will improve road riding. Could you give some examples of this, and how it's helped by track instructors.
This is, of course, Yozza's thread, and I don't want to tread on his toes, but I feel qualified to answer the first part of your post, as I did competitively race for a few years, albeit a long time ago, and have done a few track days- the short answer, IMO, is that It can ( not necessarily absolutely will) improve road riding for most riders IF they have the right mindset, as it will cause them to get nearer their personal limits than they ever are likely to on the road, and their road-riding will benefit from that
In doing so, they are likely to have situations where they will push themselves beyond where they ever have on the road and force them to at least try to over-ride what might be considered by some as "natural" panic reactions
One example of this would be arriving at a corner faster than you think you should be, and forcing yourself to release the brake, look through the corner, lean it more and rely on tyre grip and the laws of physics to get you through the corner, rather than the usual novice approach of standing it up, trying to brake your way out of it and either running out of road or out of grip on the brakes.
Another example would be when someone overtakes you faster, or perhaps slightly closer than you are comfortable with, and you then not immediately panicking and grabbing the brakes/ sitting it up, or the like- - if you can get used to that (you have to if you ever want to go fast(ish) on a track), it will make you a better road rider as when the unexpected happens on the road, you are less likely to crash as the result of a panic-induced reaction, as you won't panic as much.
All above IMO, of course.
As for the second part of the question, I'm not qualified to answer, as I've never instructed, so I'll leave that to Yozza, or others who have / do.
That is spot on, the forcing yourself to lean a bike more instead of panicking and sitting it up is a massive skill to learn. I've done enough trackdays, racing and road riding and at times when I've made a small error it's still hard to just lean the bike although I do without fail it does take some doing.
Regarding the second question the free instructors you get on a trackday are a complete lottery. A lot of them club race sometimes with the same company and they see instructing as the natural progression for their ego, some aren't quick enough or good enough to instruct and the risk is you may get one of them. Proper instruction with a known name Edwards, Ellison,Notsofast etc is far more preferable
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:13 pm
by Yorick
Horse wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:34 pm
It's often stated that going on a track day will improve road riding. Could you give some examples of this, and how it's helped by track instructors.
The obvious area is braking. The vast majority of road riders have no idea of how good their brakes are. I spend a lot of time on this when requested and pick a couple of bends per lap to work on. I ask the the riders to brake as late as they dare and remember that point. Then i ask them to repeat and I brake about 50/100 yards past that point to show them what's possible. Then I get them to brake about 20/30 yards later each lap. When they reach their limit, I taught them how to turn into a corner quickly, while still braking.
This will help them to brake better in an emergency situation. And also how to turn quickly when needed.
Also riding and concentrating at silly speeds will make them feel a bit more comfortable at normal road speeds. After razzing a litre bike around a track, I found road speeds almost boring, but as my brain is used to functioning at a higher level, I had more time to react to things and never panicked.
I'll think of more after my tea.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:49 pm
by singlesman
Hi all, new to the forum but the back brake thing caught my eye and just wanted to add my thoughts, hopefully without starting an argument.
Having raced for about 10 years at club and a bit at national level, like Couchy, I couldn’t have found the back brake if you’d asked me. However, seeing a lot of properly talented racers who use an awful lot of back brake right into the apex of certain corners I’m beginning to think I missed a trick, don’t understand the physics behind it but it’s obviously something some have found worth perfecting, racing at a level most of us can only dream about.
Also see that Simon Crafar advocates massive engine braking ( closed throttle) up to the apex with no front trail braking and he wasn’t too shabby on a race track as I remember.
Guess what I’m trying to say is that there are probably different ways of riding quickly and safely, so don’t necessarily discount ideas before trying them for yourself.
Cheers all, Paul.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:26 pm
by Nidge
Could you share the most effective pedagogical methodologies you employed
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:27 pm
by Yorick
Nidge wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:26 pm
Could you share the most effective pedagogical methodologies you employed
Wotchu talking about Willis?
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:38 pm
by Dodgy69
My thoughts are, the back wheel ain't got much weight on it so wouldn't do much anyway . Maybe running into apex. baring in mind, I know nothing.
Re: Ask Me Anything
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:46 pm
by Yorick
singlesman wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:49 pm
.
Having raced for about 10 years at club and a bit at national level, like Couchy, I couldn’t have found the back brake if you’d asked me. However, seeing a lot of properly talented racers who use an awful lot of back brake right into the apex of certain corners I’m beginning to think I missed a trick, don’t understand the physics behind it but it’s obviously something some have found worth perfecting, racing at a level most of us can only dream about.
You can use the rear brake to the apex, but only on left handers. Toes will catch if you’re really on it into a right hander.
I think partly it is that you CAN brake right up to the apex, but not always needed or fitting.
To take it right to the limit, needs Marquez-like skills, so us mere mortals back off a bit, unless really needed.
I’ve heard Rossi say that he likes to front trail brake quite hard as it squashes the tyre, giving more tyre grip. That goes against what you’d expect, as we’ve all seen folk crash through losing the front, but not gonna argue with VR.
singlesman wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:49 pm
Also see that Simon Crafar advocates massive engine braking ( closed throttle) up to the apex with no front trail braking and he wasn’t too shabby on a race track as I remember.
Not heard that one. Most riders I’ve talked to and heard on TV, said that after hard front braking, the front forks are compressed, which will quicken the steering and they keep that compression by front trail braking. Engine braking will have much less effect on compression.
But, having the engine screaming at the apex, for a clubbie, is not quite what you want for smooth exit. But Doohan and Rossi always geared their bikes for 90% power, right at the apex. They were skilled enough to handle that much, while leaned over.
