revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Visordown: Motorcycles are not included in 2030 petrol ban – for now!.
https://www.visordown.com/news/industry ... %80%93-now

TBH i'm thinking that by then the electric thing will be in full effect anyhow. I think with a bit of time we'll grow to embrace the electric.

MAybe.

I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Most of that isn't true.

I work for a company that makes electric motors for cars etc. Obviously I fully support the 2030 plans

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Renewables are growing at pace, but until the vehicle fleet is mostly electrified then the fleet will continue to pollute.

You can have the renewable sources in place at any time, but they won't help until the final point usage is electrified.

The main issue most people have is the charging infrastructure and range anxiety, both of which are being addressed pretty rapidly.

I'd be happy to have an electric vehicle, however they're still way out of my (meagre) budget for the performance (range/speed) that I'd be looking for.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:09 pm

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Most of that isn't true.

I work for a company that makes electric motors for cars etc. Obviously I fully support the 2030 plans

Which bits specifically aren't true?
My first statement is about what I think - how can it not be true?
How does an electric vehicle use less energy when it weighs more than the equivalent petrol vehicle?
How are you going to generate enough electricity for vehicular use from environmentally friendly means?

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:21 pm

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:09 pm

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Most of that isn't true.

I work for a company that makes electric motors for cars etc. Obviously I fully support the 2030 plans

Which bits specifically aren't true?
My first statement is about what I think - how can it not be true?
How does an electric vehicle use less energy when it weighs more than the equivalent petrol vehicle?
How are you going to generate enough electricity for vehicular use from environmentally friendly means?

Just on the last bit - as I said - renewables are gaining pace rapidly - there was a South American country that went (iirc) 100% renewable last year. Yes it'll take some investment, but that's all.

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:20 pm

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Renewables are growing at pace, but until the vehicle fleet is mostly electrified then the fleet will continue to pollute.

You can have the renewable sources in place at any time, but they won't help until the final point usage is electrified.

The main issue most people have is the charging infrastructure and range anxiety, both of which are being addressed pretty rapidly.

I'd be happy to have an electric vehicle, however they're still way out of my (meagre) budget for the performance (range/speed) that I'd be looking for.

How much energy is currently being produced by renewables?
How much energy will be required for all of the worlds fossil fuelled vehicles to be replaced by electric vehicles?

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Just on the last bit - as I said - renewables are gaining pace rapidly - there was a South American country that went (iirc) 100% renewable last year.

Which country was that, and have they replaced all their fossil fuelled vehicles with electric?

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:23 pm

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:20 pm

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:40 pm I don't think electric motorcycles will ever be particularly practical due to the weight of the battery.
But on a global scale electric vehicles are worse for the environment than petrol ones, you use more energy transporting a big heavy battery around and you have to generate the electricity somehow, and currently the only viable ways of getting enough for vehicles is fossil fuels and nuclear.

Renewables are growing at pace, but until the vehicle fleet is mostly electrified then the fleet will continue to pollute.

You can have the renewable sources in place at any time, but they won't help until the final point usage is electrified.

The main issue most people have is the charging infrastructure and range anxiety, both of which are being addressed pretty rapidly.

I'd be happy to have an electric vehicle, however they're still way out of my (meagre) budget for the performance (range/speed) that I'd be looking for.

How much energy is currently being produced by renewables?
How much energy will be required for all of the worlds fossil fuelled vehicles to be replaced by electric vehicles?

Don't know, and don't know, very likely it depends on which news sources you read and/or trust (or don't). But I'd rather be optimistic about it than not.

I'm not pessimistic about electric vehicles - but I don't think they're going to help the global environment in anyway, they will help the local environment though, so long as you don't live near where the electricity is being produced.

Just what I think, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

And my electrically assisted mountain bike is the best off road vehicle ever made - it's fantastic, quiet and clean.

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:24 pm

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Just on the last bit - as I said - renewables are gaining pace rapidly - there was a South American country that went (iirc) 100% renewable last year.

Which country was that, and have they replaced all their fossil fuelled vehicles with electric?

Not sure - found this article : https://www.resilience.org/stories/2018 ... happening/# which appears to state that Paraguay and Chile are (nearly) there (along with a few others) - but it doesn't say anything about vehicles.

Vehicles are an issue more because of consumer (lack of) confidence and cost to buy. For every person willing to chance one, there's 200 or so conservative (small c) stick in the mud luddites who aren't ready to change. T'was ever thus, it took a long time for people to trust cars when they first appeared, until they proved themselves.

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:21 pm Which bits specifically aren't true?
My first statement is about what I think - how can it not be true?
How does an electric vehicle use less energy when it weighs more than the equivalent petrol vehicle?
How are you going to generate enough electricity for vehicular use from environmentally friendly means?

That's why I said "most" Quite right your own opinion is true.

How can an electric vehicle use less energy to move less weight? It's significantly more efficient that's how. At it's very very best a petrol engine might be 35% efficient, meaning 65% of your fuel is wasted doing nothing useful at all. And that's when you're operating at the engines peak efficiency, which you're generally not. At it's very very worst a typical electric power train is ~85% efficient. Generally you're above 95% efficient so you only waste 5% of the 'fuel' you use. So even if you're twice as heavy - which you're not - it doesn't matter when you're 3-4 or even 10 times as efficient.

Even if you assumed your electric car were powered only with juice generated by a coal fired power station it's still less CO2 becuase power stations are much more efficient than car engines - typically around 65%.

Electric cars are heavier but they're generally also lower aerodynamic drag because they need much less cooling. Cooling (i.e. ducts and radiators) adds ALOT of drag. Given that more than half your engine power goes into overcoming aerodynamic drag (at motorway speeds) there's another reason electric cars use less energy.

The UK already generates about 20% of its power from wind. That's not a theoretical number, that's how much of our power came form wind in 2019. The government has already approved enough wind farms to generate 50GW of power on a typical day. How much is 50GW? Total UK power consumption is about 35GW at the moment. So 'they' are making plans for the UK to have enough installed wind power to be more than 100% windy.

Before anyone says it, yes I know electric cars will increase demand and I know that it's not always windy, but to say "the only way is fossil" is a long way from the truth.

If a country has geo thermal or lots of hydro then going renewable is relatively easy, and I'm all in favour of it, as I've said my EMTB is fab, and I doubt if I'll ever buy an ICE off road motorcycle again, I think electric vehicles are a good thing - but I don't think they'll save the world's environment, a better approach would be to wean people off vehicle use and stop shipping shite round the world that no one needs (though this keeps me in a well paid job)
An easy first stage would be to stop people flying on holiday - it's pointless, unnecessary travel.

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:29 pm I'm not pessimistic about electric vehicles - but I don't think they're going to help the global environment in anyway, they will help the local environment though, so long as you don't live near where the electricity is being produced.

Just what I think, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

And my electrically assisted mountain bike is the best off road vehicle ever made - it's fantastic, quiet and clean.

They will help the environment eventually because they'll (hopefully) provide the energy companies with financial ability (via fees) to invest in more renewable sources.


I seem to remember reading a study a while ago that claimed you only needed about a 10 square mile area of solar farm in the saraha (ie well away from any nimbies) to provide the vast majority of the energy for Europe. The only real issues were the cost of setting it up, and taking the energy to it's point of use.

I've seen some solar farms in Europe that were massive (in Spain especially), there's a lot more 'room' on the continent for such things.

The collector tower designs are really impressive.

Julian_Boolean wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:36 pm a better approach would be to wean people off vehicle use and stop shipping shite round the world that no one needs (though this keeps me in a well paid job)
An easy first stage would be to stop people flying on holiday - it's pointless, unnecessary travel.

Absolutely correct, but try actually achieving that.

FWIW the current 'lockdown' and virus movement restrictions are probably be biggest cause of people realising that a lot of commuting isn't required. Most of the people who can work from home are doing so, and it's (hopefully) proving to their moribund middle-managers that such practises work and can be continued in the future. Removing the 'commuting' pollution is probably not a huge percentage of overall vehicle movement, but it's a good start.

Dodgy knees wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:27 pm Visordown: Motorcycles are not included in 2030 petrol ban – for now!.
https://www.visordown.com/news/industry ... %80%93-now

Just a quick thought on this: as the ICE vehicle fleet diminishes, isn't the retail price of fuel going to skyrocket? Yes we can still ride our petrol burning bikes, but will we be able to afford it?

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:44 pm

Dodgy knees wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:27 pm Visordown: Motorcycles are not included in 2030 petrol ban – for now!.
https://www.visordown.com/news/industry ... %80%93-now

Just a quick thought on this: as the ICE vehicle fleet diminishes, isn't the retail price of fuel going to skyrocket? Yes we can still ride our petrol burning bikes, but will we be able to afford it?

And what do you do on your 100 mile range bike if the nearest petrol station thats still going is 55 miles away?

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:46 pm

Rockburner wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:44 pm

Dodgy knees wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:27 pm Visordown: Motorcycles are not included in 2030 petrol ban – for now!.
https://www.visordown.com/news/industry ... %80%93-now

Just a quick thought on this: as the ICE vehicle fleet diminishes, isn't the retail price of fuel going to skyrocket? Yes we can still ride our petrol burning bikes, but will we be able to afford it?

And what do you do on your 100 mile range bike if the nearest petrol station thats still going is 55 miles away?

Use your electric car to go get a jerry-can of foul smelling liquid? People will think you're nuts.

It will basically be the reverse of how electric cars were 10 years ago...