In todays news...

[Noggin]

My daughter has had every covid jab they've issued and has had covid 6 times!

I don't know how many times I've had Covid as I have virtually no symptoms from it. Definitely once pre vaccine and once after the second (or third?) when I tested and pretty sure I had it or something similar a couple of months ago (along with most people in resort). I've had all the vaccines offered.

Equally - pretty sure the flu vaccine doesn't offer 100% protection from flu - but hopefully reduces the effects.


Wasn't the idea of the covid vaccine that the more people that had it, the less would get covid badly and those that were stronger/more immune would get less of it therefore hopefully preventing the spread being so fast and reducing the strength of the virus?


Mind you - six times is indeed being greedy!!

[Noggin]

Wouldn't it be remarkable and exciting if it was all a con and dark forces who run the world etc and only WE saw that because the rest of the world was too stupid. Wouldn't that make us feel remarkable and special ... because we had found this evidence ON THE INTERNET!

Wouldn't it be less remarkable and make us feel less special if it was all as it appeared and not some sort of huge conspiracy which had fooled everyone else, including all the world's scientists etc (unless they're in on it, like they are with global warming and the moon landings and ...)

I know someone that used to live up here that was so totally into all conspiracies it was properly funny. I mean, scary because she 100% believes everything she says; but funny because they are all so completely wild!!

[Mr Moofo]

Yeah. You get the vaccine, you don't get the disease. that's (broadly speaking) how traditional vaccines work. These new, trendy, modern vaccines seem to work differently. With a different definition of "work".

Actual data states that the COVID-vaccinated are -
8 times less likely to get COVID-19
25 times less likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19
25 times less likely to die of COVID-19

So, your opening premise isn't correct. More 'traditional' vaccines, like say flu vaccines, don't offer you 100% protection either - but if you get it it is likely to be milder and shorter.

Modern diseases are more complicated than the older ones. That is because we no longer die from the older ones because of vaccines.
Feel free to not get vaccinated - but then perhaps the NHS should not waste their time treating you.

Coming from a scientific training, and having several friends in the Pharma industry, it was interesting to see how their view changed over the pandemic.
I don't think that scientists help themselves my prostituting themselves to each every and all cause that involved money. The old adage still applies - find out who funded the research. Whist results may be definitive , the interpretation is not.

The scientific / Medical community need to do a lot to make themselves look like a bunch of money grabbing, low morals, guns forbore on any cause going. They well and truly shot themselves in the foot

[DefTrap]

I did say "broadly speaking". Traditional vaccines: polio, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, rubella etc. you get the vaccine and you don't get the disease. Flu is rather different in that there are lots of variants of flu virus so the experts have to predict which variants are likely to be most prevalent in any particular year and tailor the vaccine accordingly. Sometimes they get it wrong. That's why it's not 100% effective.

But you knew that already, didn't you? That's why you chose the flu vaccine as an example of a traditional vaccine.

I'm glad we agree that flu is the most relevant comparison to covid.

But your OP was "Yeah. You get the vaccine, you don't get the disease. that's (broadly speaking) how traditional vaccines work. These new, trendy, modern vaccines seem to work differently. With a different definition of "work".
The vaccines work just fine, it's not their fault that some viruses mutate so quickly.

and you also said "As far as I know, every single new vaccine ever* produced has been tested on willing volunteers for 10 years or so before being deemed safe enough to release to the general public. As I said at the time, either the COVID vaccine was released without sufficient testing or the pharmaceutical companies are dragging their feet testing other vaccines. You can't have it both ways."

Given that we have agreed that covid and flu are in a different class to the likes of polio in that they rapidly mutate, the following questions should be asked
- why aren't you complaining about flu vaccine testing
- what sort of long term safety-testing is even appropriate for this sort of vaccine

[Saga Lout]

Given that we have agreed that covid and flu are in a different class to the likes of polio in that they rapidly mutate, the following questions should be asked
- why aren't you complaining about flu vaccine testing
- what sort of long term safety-testing is even appropriate for this sort of vaccine

The flu vaccine uses tried and tested technology against variants of the flu virus. It works imperfectly because there are so many different variants.
The mRNA COVID vaccines use a new technique that hasn't been tried and tested. It works imperfectly, if at all, because it hasn't been tested.
Well, it has now. For the last three years it's been tested on millions of mostly ill informed test subjects. It seems that it gives little to no protection and has many side effects ranging from mild to severe. In a sane world it would have been withdrawn or at least restricted until tested properly.

[gremlin]

Yeah, but I got a sticker after having mine.

[DefTrap]

The flu vaccine uses tried and tested technology against variants of the flu virus. It works imperfectly because there are so many different variants.
The mRNA COVID vaccines use a new technique that hasn't been tried and tested. It works imperfectly, if at all, because it hasn't been tested.
Well, it has now. For the last three years it's been tested on millions of mostly ill informed test subjects. It seems that it gives little to no protection and has many side effects ranging from mild to severe. In a sane world it would have been withdrawn or at least restricted until tested properly.

Ok, so now we're getting somewhere (at last) your beef is with the mRNA covid vaccine - you could have saved some time if you'd mentioned that first.

"The mRNA COVID vaccines use a new technique" To you maybe but not really.
" that hasn't been tried and tested." Disagree because it just isn't true. Same testing as any other vaccine following the same rules. Foreshortened (alongside all the other 'normal' covid vaccines) testing to release for all these covid vaccines because of schedule massaging, available funding, easy recruitment, unprecedented collabortaion.
"It works imperfectly, if at all, " Nope, statistically efficacy is high. Interested to hear why you think not.
"because it hasn't been tested." It has though, see above.
"mostly ill informed test subjects". Ill-informed about what? Test subjects on actual medical trials are required to formally complete and sign their name to "Informed Consent", by the way, it's the law. If you're talking about Joe Public - well, you can only give people the medical information available at the time. A lot of people don't even ask.
"It seems that it gives little to no protection" No, see above.
" and has many side effects ranging from mild to severe.". Finally we're getting to it. Possibly this has some merit, and this is the same for any medication, but in the case of covid mRNA vaccine AFAIK these are really low instances of side effects and there's no verified link. There is an unbiased, follow-up, information-gathering process for all medications that are released. Unusual instances of adverse events are investigated, time will tell.

I think you're stretching. If you could have resisted putting your serious point amongst all that other garbage you might be taken more seriously.

[Saga Lout]

"The mRNA COVID vaccines use a new technique" To you maybe but not really.

Do you mean we had mRNA gene therapy before or that we had mRNA vaccines before? I don't recall any previous mRNA vaccines.

...
"mostly ill informed test subjects". Ill-informed about what? Test subjects on actual medical trials are required to formally complete and sign their name to "Informed Consent", by the way, it's the law. If you're talking about Joe Public - well, you can only give people the medical information available at the time. A lot of people don't even ask..

Yes, I was referring to Joe Public, the millions of ill-informed subjects. "Take this vaccine (that is safe and effective) and you'll be able to get your life back. If you don't get the vaccine you'll lose your job. If you don't get the vaccine you won't be able to travel." That;s coercion and no way to get informed consent.

The COVID vaccine was a new application of mRNA gene therapy which should have been extensively tested before being released to the general public, most of whom weren't really aware that it was experimental and that they were the guinea pigs.

[Greenman]

Yeah. You get the vaccine, you don't get the disease. that's (broadly speaking) how traditional vaccines work. These new, trendy, modern vaccines seem to work differently. With a different definition of "work".

Actual data states that the COVID-vaccinated are -
8 times less likely to get COVID-19
25 times less likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19
25 times less likely to die of COVID-19

So, your opening premise isn't correct. More 'traditional' vaccines, like say flu vaccines, don't offer you 100% protection either - but if you get it it is likely to be milder and shorter.

Modern diseases are more complicated than the older ones. That is because we no longer die from the older ones because of vaccines.
Feel free to not get vaccinated - but then perhaps the NHS should not waste their time treating you.

Sorry but that got my back up.

You cannot say this with any conviction what so ever without including yourself in that demographic.

Drinking coffee is bad for you, riding bikes is bad for you, drinking alcohol is bad for you, they are life choices, people have the right to choose how they live, not having drugs injected into your body is one for them, for now at least.

Just out of curiosity, if they made all of the vaccines mandatory how woould you feel about that?

[MrLongbeard]

Drinking coffee is bad for you, riding bikes is bad for you, drinking alcohol is bad for you, they are life choices, people have the right to choose how they live, not having drugs injected into your body is one for them, for now at least.

Agree, and the NHS already openly restricts access to its services depending on certain lifestyle choice you make.

[Noggin]

There will always be a very small percentage of people that will react to medication including vaccines. (Equally, there are some weirdos that don't react to some medication at all )

There is, apparently, a higher risk of blood clot/heart issues from taking the contraceptive pill than from the covid vaccine (of course, that affects less than 50% of the population); aspirin can cause seizures (I believe the percentage of that is higher than having a bad reaction to the Covid jab); etc etc


Every single medication that people are given and take has a massive list of side effects. You either read them or not. You take the risk or not. The percentage of bad reactions is so small that most people don't bother to think about that. But with Covid the numbers were high. The percentages were still tiny, but there were far far more people involved. Then the general public get all up in the air about that tiny percentage - they don't give a shit about the percentage of girls having a reaction to the pill or the number of bad reactions to aspirin because the numbers are so low.


It's terrible when there is a bad reaction to a medication. But there are so many allergies in life to so many things. And its sad when that reaction is fatal

But I don't think that that is a reason to dismiss all the vaccines or even just one.

[Greenman]

There will always be a very small percentage of people that will react to medication including vaccines. (Equally, there are some weirdos that don't react to some medication at all )

There is, apparently, a higher risk of blood clot/heart issues from taking the contraceptive pill than from the covid vaccine (of course, that affects less than 50% of the population); aspirin can cause seizures (I believe the percentage of that is higher than having a bad reaction to the Covid jab); etc etc


Every single medication that people are given and take has a massive list of side effects. You either read them or not. You take the risk or not. The percentage of bad reactions is so small that most people don't bother to think about that. But with Covid the numbers were high. The percentages were still tiny, but there were far far more people involved. Then the general public get all up in the air about that tiny percentage - they don't give a shit about the percentage of girls having a reaction to the pill or the number of bad reactions to aspirin because the numbers are so low.


It's terrible when there is a bad reaction to a medication. But there are so many allergies in life to so many things. And its sad when that reaction is fatal

But I don't think that that is a reason to dismiss all the vaccines or even just one.

I'm a great believer that we are here and when you time is up your time is up. You can't avoid death so instead embrace it and live the life you have here as much as you can. That's all that matters. I'm not sure especially in this day and age why people want to avoid death so much by doing things that make them feel ill whilst they are alive, it really does boggle my mind.

[DefTrap]

Yes, I was referring to Joe Public, the millions of ill-informed subjects. "Take this vaccine (that is safe and effective) and you'll be able to get your life back. If you don't get the vaccine you'll lose your job. If you don't get the vaccine you won't be able to travel." That;s coercion and no way to get informed consent.

Again, not ill-informed. It was tested, it remains effective and it remains safe (as far as we know). Those are just the facts available. "Being informed" does not involve your doctor waffling about the potential for unknown future 'what-if?' scenarios, or even low instances of actual reported side-effects that have no verified bearing on safety. Your GP has a duty to present the known facts - if he went "woah man, don't puts chemicals in your body dude, it could be bad!" like some weirdo twat, you'd have far more cause for complaint.

Nobody should be coerced to take any medication by the way, its' your right to not have it and good on you for leading a healthy lifestyle, having good genes and being bloody lucky. However the facts of a virulent pandemic means that even if you think you do fall into that category, you don't get to do what you want.

By the way - regarding being coreced into the vaccine - probably many more jobs might have been lost if the pandemic hadn't been controlled by vaccine, isolation, travel-restrictions - so you can't have it both ways it seems.

[JackyJoll]

I'm a great believer that we are here and when you time is up your time is up. You can't avoid death so instead embrace it and live the life you have here as much as you can. That's all that matters. I'm not sure especially in this day and age why people want to avoid death so much by doing things that make them feel ill whilst they are alive,

So, if we die from the vaccine, that’s bad, but if we die from not having the vaccine, that’s good?

it really does boggle my mind.

Doesn’t take much.

[Greenman]

I'm a great believer that we are here and when you time is up your time is up. You can't avoid death so instead embrace it and live the life you have here as much as you can. That's all that matters. I'm not sure especially in this day and age why people want to avoid death so much by doing things that make them feel ill whilst they are alive,

So, if we die from the vaccine, that’s bad, but if we die from not having the vaccine, that’s good?

it really does boggle my mind.

Doesn’t take much.

No.

I am talking about qaulity of life. Too many people want to live until 100+ without actually living at all and see those that want to live a faster life as scum.

There are too many people in the world now to worry about upsetting someone with your life choices, the world cannot accommodate all of people's life choices, you just have to make sure you are choosing the right choices for you. One of those choices for me was not to have the vaccine.

[Mr Moofo]

Actual data states that the COVID-vaccinated are -
8 times less likely to get COVID-19
25 times less likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19
25 times less likely to die of COVID-19

So, your opening premise isn't correct. More 'traditional' vaccines, like say flu vaccines, don't offer you 100% protection either - but if you get it it is likely to be milder and shorter.

Modern diseases are more complicated than the older ones. That is because we no longer die from the older ones because of vaccines.
Feel free to not get vaccinated - but then perhaps the NHS should not waste their time treating you.

Sorry but that got my back up.

You cannot say this with any conviction what so ever without including yourself in that demographic.

Drinking coffee is bad for you, riding bikes is bad for you, drinking alcohol is bad for you, they are life choices, people have the right to choose how they live, not having drugs injected into your body is one for them, for now at least.

Just out of curiosity, if they made all of the vaccines mandatory how woould you feel about that?

If it was " and then not waste NHS time" or infect the rest of the population - then I wouldn't have a problem (given the correct toxicology reports). Would you want to see small pox or the plague running through the population .

The irony of all this is that you will smoke the herb until in comes out of your ears - and presumably you haven't studied all the scientific data re safety (and smoking)
And then the other recreationals that you use, you will have no idea where they have come from, what is in them etc.

[Noggin]

Modern diseases are more complicated than the older ones. That is because we no longer die from the older ones because of vaccines.
Feel free to not get vaccinated - but then perhaps the NHS should not waste their time treating you.

Sorry but that got my back up.

You cannot say this with any conviction what so ever without including yourself in that demographic.

Drinking coffee is bad for you, riding bikes is bad for you, drinking alcohol is bad for you, they are life choices, people have the right to choose how they live, not having drugs injected into your body is one for them, for now at least.

Just out of curiosity, if they made all of the vaccines mandatory how woould you feel about that?

Essentially is was mandatory here. If you didn't have it you couldn't go into certain places or do certain jobs.

I had every Covid vaccine as early as I could (earlier than most of my friends cos I'm old with a high BMI), and had the most recent, non mandatory, one back in november.

[Felix]

30 fucking years :O Must have been between eating pies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg3kmmvey42o

[Greenman]

Modern diseases are more complicated than the older ones. That is because we no longer die from the older ones because of vaccines.
Feel free to not get vaccinated - but then perhaps the NHS should not waste their time treating you.

Sorry but that got my back up.

You cannot say this with any conviction what so ever without including yourself in that demographic.

Drinking coffee is bad for you, riding bikes is bad for you, drinking alcohol is bad for you, they are life choices, people have the right to choose how they live, not having drugs injected into your body is one for them, for now at least.

Just out of curiosity, if they made all of the vaccines mandatory how woould you feel about that?

If it was " and then not waste NHS time" or infect the rest of the population - then I wouldn't have a problem (given the correct toxicology reports). Would you want to see small pox or the plague running through the population .

The irony of all this is that you will smoke the herb until in comes out of your ears - and presumably you haven't studied all the scientific data re safety (and smoking)
And then the other recreationals that you use, you will have no idea where they have come from, what is in them etc.

This isn't about me.

Again, we all make our own choices. If i choose to smoke the erb and i die from some sort of illness from it in my 60's or what ever then i would be happy i have lived my life the way i wanted to live it, conversely, i would also not judge others for taking vaccines etc that they think is right for them, I make comments about thinking it is not the right thing to do, but i won't judge that person for doing something just because i think it's not right, unlike you and your 'we shouldn't treat them' comment.

I just get annoyed when some people get on their high horse and think the way they are living is so much better than others because they have done what the gov have told them do. It's like it's against the law to be an individual and if you are different and have different morals and opinions to the sheep led massive you are seen as being some sort of mad man!

[Mr. Dazzle]

I didn't take the vaccine because the government told me to, i did it for exactly the same reason as I get my children vaccinated. Because it's a sensible idea I think this because I understand how they work (not literally, as in, what the point of them is) and what they do.

Not everything "the man" tells you to do is herd control. Some of it is a good idea, probably most of it in reality.

I dont' get the sense your objection to this vaccine is anything to do with your understanding of it Greenie. It's because "they" want you to take it and because other people made money off it. Ironically I think this attitude makes you a sheep.