EICMA

[The Spin Doctor]

Some slightly odd looking bikes from there (well, hopefully if imgbb works this time!!) -

Thanks for the share

I truly hope we never, ever see some of those monstrosities on the road.

[mangocrazy]

I'm viewing this debate about e-bikes through the lens of someone who, if still able, wants to continue to ride and buy motorcycles beyond 2035. I will need them to be sufficently light, sufficiently powerful, have sufficient range and be sufficiently affordable. The word 'sufficient' is the variable here and will mean different things to different people. For me, there is no way that I can see e-bikes fitting my criteria by the time 2035 rolls round.

Unfortunately, you're not the target user demographic for electric motorcycle sales.

As a user group we are totally numerically insignificant, and as such we are totally insignificant in the drive to reduce and eeventually eliminate tail-pipe emissions.

Which is why we should be pushing for special dispensation

FTFY

[Horse]

I presume you're agreeing with me here? Or are you trying to say that internationally, particularly in Asia, the market is significant? I can certainly see that a low-priced, commuter e-bike could be a big hit in Asia, as long as the punters had somewhere to charge all these commuter bikes.

Bikes are great for reducing congestion and that applies equally to e-bikes and ICE bikes.

When posting, I didn't think I'd explained it well

I was trying to cover two issues:

- That investment in development will - like much industry, etc., - follow the money i.e. the market. Big bikes may be where it's at in the West but, in global terms of units shifted, smaller bikes outnumber. That's nothing new, Honda shifted 100 million of the C50/70/90 bikes.

- With bigger bikes especially, it's a stretch to really claim congestion-busting and, particularly, any eco benefits. Anything with a full fairing and/or panniers needs plenty of space. Most bigger bikes shred tyres and need far more servicing than cars.

My point is that unless the e-bike value proposition is equivalent to an ICE bike, in whatever market segment you're talking about, it simply isn't going to fly and punters won't buy. Trying to talk up the e-bike proposition when it's so far short of the ICE alternative simply doesn't work.

As far as leisure biking goes, you're right, 'bang'[whizz] per buck, etc. But, as is happening elsewhere, the move to [much] smaller battery-powered bikes is happening. With swappable batteries (which the Japanese manufacturers are collaborating on), then that is likely to bring down the headline cost.

Swappable batteries for larger bikes is probably not feasible due to the weight.

@Mr. Dazzle for a technical opinion, market awareness, etc.

@The Spin Doctor re International developments, is this the themes you were looking at?

[Mr. Dazzle]

My bet would be Triumph didn't go anywhere with the TE-1 simply 'cause it'd be too expensive to turn it into a road vehicle. Too expensive a project, and targeting an extremely conservative market. It's almost comedic, how stuck in the their ways Bikers are given the supposed reputation for rebellion.

I wouldn't be so sure that they'd never fly as leisure vehicles, the one user on here who's seriously tried an EV 'big bike' (so far as I'm aware) had this to say...

I absolutely love it, it is easily the best bike I've ever ridden in 40 years

Regarding not banning ICE motorcycles in the same way as cars - I can't see that happening for purely political/image reasons. If you say ICE cars aren't allowed for environmental reasons how can you possible say, with a straight face, that a vehicle used entirely for leisure where essentially every journey is unnecessary is allowed to still be ICE?

[Count Steer]

My bet would be Triumph didn't go anywhere with the TE-1 simply 'cause it'd be too expensive to turn it into a road vehicle. Too expensive a project, and targeting an extremely conservative market. It's almost comedic, how stuck in the their ways Bikers are, given the supposed reputation for rebellion.

I wouldn't be so sure that they'd never fly as leisure vehicles, the one user on here who's seriously tried on (so far as I'm aware) had this to say...

I absolutely love it, it is easily the best bike I've ever ridden in 40 years

Regarding not banning ICE motorcycles in the same way as cars - I can't see that happening for purely political/image reasons. If you say ICE cars aren't allowed for environmental reasons how can you possible say, with a straight face, that a vehicle used entirely for leisure where essentially every journey is unnecessary is allowed to still be ICE?

Bikers are a bunch of Canutes They think they can hold back the tide of electrification.

I suspect that everyone on here will be able to ride an ICE bike without too much trouble until they need feeding through a straw though. Just not a brand new one after 2040..2050......ish.

[mangocrazy]

I don't wish to come across as anti e-bike, because I'm not. If there was a genuine e-bike equivalent to the bikes I currently own at a comparative price point I would be very interested to try it out and possibly even buy it. But there is nothing out there that is remotely comparable across all the different (and conflicting) requirements I have, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I no longer need or want to commute on bikes and all my riding is basically for leisure and enjoyment. For me weight, performance, price and range are all important and you simply can't have them all on an e-bike at present.

That day will come, I'm sure of it - I just doubt it will be in my riding lifetime. All this reminds me of the 'networking triangle' that was regarded as a truism when I was starting out in the big wide world of computer networking. Everyone wanted networks that were fast, reliable and cheap, but the catch was you could only ever have 2 out of the 3 options. You could have networks that were fast and reliable but they'd cost a fortune. Or you could have networks that were cheap and reliable, but they'd be dog slow etc. etc.

[weeksy]

I don't wish to come across as anti e-bike, because I'm not. If there was a genuine e-bike equivalent to the bikes I currently own at a comparative price point I would be very interested to try it out and possibly even buy it. But there is nothing out there that is remotely comparable across all the different (and conflicting) requirements I have, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I no longer need or want to commute on bikes and all my riding is basically for leisure and enjoyment. For me weight, performance, price and range are all important and you simply can't have them all on an e-bike at present.

That day will come, I'm sure of it - I just doubt it will be in my riding lifetime. All this reminds me of the 'networking triangle' that was regarded as a truism when I was starting out in the big wide world of computer networking. Everyone wanted networks that were fast, reliable and cheap, but the catch was you could only ever have 2 out of the 3 options. You could have networks that were fast and reliable but they'd cost a fortune. Or you could have networks that were cheap and reliable, but they'd be dog slow etc. etc.

The bloke who rides twice a month and keeps his bikes for 10+ years isn't the person they're aiming for.

Why would they really, there's no profit in people who don't buy bikes

[mangocrazy]

...

[weeksy]

I don't wish to come across as anti e-bike, because I'm not. If there was a genuine e-bike equivalent to the bikes I currently own at a comparative price point I would be very interested to try it out and possibly even buy it. But there is nothing out there that is remotely comparable across all the different (and conflicting) requirements I have, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I no longer need or want to commute on bikes and all my riding is basically for leisure and enjoyment. For me weight, performance, price and range are all important and you simply can't have them all on an e-bike at present.

That day will come, I'm sure of it - I just doubt it will be in my riding lifetime. All this reminds me of the 'networking triangle' that was regarded as a truism when I was starting out in the big wide world of computer networking. Everyone wanted networks that were fast, reliable and cheap, but the catch was you could only ever have 2 out of the 3 options. You could have networks that were fast and reliable but they'd cost a fortune. Or you could have networks that were cheap and reliable, but they'd be dog slow etc. etc.

The bloke who rides twice a month and keeps his bikes for 10+ years isn't the person they're aiming for.

Why would they really, there's no profit in people who don't buy bikes

I'd say you're talking about yourself there. At least I do still own, buy and ride bikes

You own a Falco which is what, 20 years old ? a 690 that's 6-7 years old ? They want PCP buyers who'll buy them every 3 years, they want people who run them into the ground, get a new one, rinse and repeat.

[mangocrazy]

...

[The Spin Doctor]

My bet would be Triumph didn't go anywhere with the TE-1 simply 'cause it'd be too expensive to turn it into a road vehicle. Too expensive a project, and targeting an extremely conservative market. It's almost comedic, how stuck in the their ways Bikers are given the supposed reputation for rebellion.

I understand the conservative market issues but 'too expensive'? The Energica is on sale and £25k. Check out the prices of top of the range Ducatis.

And conservative only applies to a subsection of the end users. There are affordable low powered leccie bikes doing OK in the UK sales charts (Sur-ron are selling well) there are plenty of electric scoots being used by delivery riders, and the UK is small beer - since they are doing even better in some other markets, it is a bit of a puzzle why Triumph et al haven't started developing their own entry level machines.

Swappable batteries also take away one possible problem - rapidly advancing battery technology rendering an old battery obsolete. If it's swappable, you simply replace the batteries.

I wouldn't be so sure that they'd never fly as leisure vehicles, the one user on here who's seriously tried an EV 'big bike' (so far as I'm aware) had this to say...

I absolutely love it, it is easily the best bike I've ever ridden in 40 years

I wouldn't say I have tried on 'seriously' but I had enough time on one to think "this could replace my Divvie for most purposes".

Regarding not banning ICE motorcycles in the same way as cars - I can't see that happening for purely political/image reasons. If you say ICE cars aren't allowed for environmental reasons how can you possible say, with a straight face, that a vehicle used entirely for leisure where essentially every journey is unnecessary is allowed to still be ICE?

I agree. Special dispensation - as being argued for by the MCIA and MAG - isn't going to happen.

[weeksy]

I'd say you're talking about yourself there. At least I do still own, buy and ride bikes

You own a Falco which is what, 20 years old ? a 690 that's 6-7 years old ? They want PCP buyers who'll buy them every 3 years, they want people who run them into the ground, get a new one, rinse and repeat.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what 'they' want and I'm not entirely sure why should either. What is this? Bashing someone who doesn't conform to your concept of how the motorcycle industry works?

WTF are you on about ? We're discussing bikes and it came about about electric bikes, you then said that you're not their target market... How on earth i'm bashing you i have no idea. I'm simply saying that you're not the target buyer of manufacturers... I could say exactly the same about 90% of people on here. How in fucks name you seem to have taken this as a personal attack is completely beyond me.

[Taipan]

I was very pro eBikes, and looking forward to getting one at some point, but much less so now. I think the bigger zeros would easily have enough range for my commute, so that side of things is sorted. But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

[mangocrazy]

I said that the e-bike proposition as it stands doesn't meet my requirements, and tried to explain why that is so. I'm still interested in ICE bikes and am following the Yamaha CP3 variants with some interest, as they look pretty much ideal for me. Then you pop up and effectively tell me not to bother as I'm not the kind of customer they're interested in. Which is why I took it personally.

[The Spin Doctor]

I was very pro eBikes, and looking forward to getting one at some point, but much less so now. I think the bigger zeros would easily have enough range for my commute, so that side of things is sorted. But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

Stick attached so the spokes of the rear wheel hit it when it's rotating? Just like I used to do on my bicycle as a kid

Actually, the Zeros aren't THAT silent... as I have mentioned before they make a kind of 'jet engine spooling' noise... it was loud enough to make someone mowing his front lawn look round sharply as I rode the Zero past his house

[weeksy]

I said that the e-bike proposition as it stands doesn't meet my requirements, and tried to explain why that is so. I'm still interested in ICE bikes and am following the Yamaha CP3 variants with some interest, as they look pretty much ideal for me. Then you pop up and effectively tell me not to bother as I'm not the kind of customer they're interested in. Which is why I took it personally.

So i agreed with you and you've taken it personally ? lol... errrrrrrm

As i say, i was commenting on the industry as a whole, not on YOU....

[Rockburner]

I was very pro eBikes, and looking forward to getting one at some point, but much less so now. I think the bigger zeros would easily have enough range for my commute, so that side of things is sorted. But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

With the growth of quieter bikes and cars, I wonder if there'll be a "Darwinistic" alteration in the behaviour of pedestrians: all those who aren't prepared to keep proper observations will be killed off and those that are able to look out for vehicles will carry on to breed and evolve a slightly more observant human being?

[mangocrazy]

I said that the e-bike proposition as it stands doesn't meet my requirements, and tried to explain why that is so. I'm still interested in ICE bikes and am following the Yamaha CP3 variants with some interest, as they look pretty much ideal for me. Then you pop up and effectively tell me not to bother as I'm not the kind of customer they're interested in. Which is why I took it personally.

So i agreed with you and you've taken it personally ? lol... errrrrrrm

As i say, i was commenting on the industry as a whole, not on YOU....

It didn't feel like agreement, it felt more like taking a pop, but I'm happy to stand corrected. Apologies for flying off the handle.

[Taipan]

I was very pro eBikes, and looking forward to getting one at some point, but much less so now. I think the bigger zeros would easily have enough range for my commute, so that side of things is sorted. But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

With the growth of quieter bikes and cars, I wonder if there'll be a "Darwinistic" alteration in the behaviour of pedestrians: all those who aren't prepared to keep proper observations will be killed off and those that are able to look out for vehicles will carry on to breed and evolve a slightly more observant human being?

Promise?

[Horse]

But, with so many near misses with London's cyclists and pedestrians, its the quietness of them, of all things, thats putting me off!

Lower button. You probably have something similar on your bike