revtothelimit - motorbike forum

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:07 am Probably too late now, but I'd have asked to have a gander at the old (failed) bearings.

The work has not been done yet so I could.

I wouldn't What difference is it going to mkae, you're getting 'em replaced anyway!

I would . I'd definitely like to see why head bearings have failed after only 4k from new.

I would guess improper installation, which won't show up anyway. Oil and grease aren't strictly required for a rolling bearing, the idea is they er....roll! Hence no lube is actually needed, it's mostly there for cooling and corrosion. But in order to roll they require a certain minimum preload, which is generated by the installation. Without that they 'skid' instead and get fucked in no time.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:48 am I would guess improper installation, which won't show up anyway. Oil and grease aren't strictly required for a rolling bearing, the idea is they er....roll! Hence no lube is actually needed, it's mostly there for cooling and corrosion. But in order to roll they require a certain minimum preload, which is generated by the installation. Without that they 'skid' instead and get fucked in no time.

In a clean room test environment, maybe (although frankly I doubt it). Out in the real world grease (and a sufficient amount thereof) is an absolute must.

So when a component fails in your world you don't try and investigate the cause, you just go 'bung in another one, it'll be reet'?

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:55 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:48 am I would guess improper installation, which won't show up anyway. Oil and grease aren't strictly required for a rolling bearing, the idea is they er....roll! Hence no lube is actually needed, it's mostly there for cooling and corrosion. But in order to roll they require a certain minimum preload, which is generated by the installation. Without that they 'skid' instead and get fucked in no time.

In a clean room test environment, maybe (although frankly I doubt it). Out in the real world grease (and a sufficient amount thereof) is an absolute must.

So when a component fails in your world you don't try and investigate the cause, you just go 'bung in another one, it'll be reet'?

I'm not sure what Trinity will gain from any of this though, it's not like she did the first one, nor will she do this one... At best she may find out someone did something wrong somewhere... but it won't help with anything ?

Yeah exactly, it's just an (potentially ) interesting diversion which has no effect on the net outcome for Trinity.

Even if it were my bike I probably wouldn't care that much, it's not going to change what I actually do. Make sure it's the right part, installed correctly. It was either the wrong part or it was installed wrong before, so problem solved

Good grief, is there no wish to understand what actually caused the failure - no spirit of inquiry? I'm not sure whether Trinity is that concerned or not, but I know I would be. You spend good money on a brand new bike and stuff fails after 4k and it's just 'whatever'... ?

Busman's holiday innit.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:07 am Busman's holiday innit.

As you keep on reminding us 'it's the day job', which is why I find your laissez-faire attitude to finding out the root cause so inexplicable.

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:04 am Good grief, is there no wish to understand what actually caused the failure - no spirit of inquiry? I'm not sure whether Trinity is that concerned or not, but I know I would be. You spend good money on a brand new bike and stuff fails after 4k and it's just 'whatever'... ?

But what will it change ?

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:10 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:07 am Busman's holiday innit.

As you keep on reminding us 'it's the day job', which is why I find your laissez-faire attitude to finding out the root cause so inexplicable.

It's boring.

Bearing failure - got too hot, got shit in it, not got enough preload. I already know the answer!

weeksy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:12 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:04 am Good grief, is there no wish to understand what actually caused the failure - no spirit of inquiry? I'm not sure whether Trinity is that concerned or not, but I know I would be. You spend good money on a brand new bike and stuff fails after 4k and it's just 'whatever'... ?

But what will it change ?

Bad practice at the factory? (If enough people feed back/complain - although I wouldn't hold my breath). Ultimately it's a cost for Triumph and a customer that loses the use of their bike for a day or so.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:14 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:10 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:07 am Busman's holiday innit.

As you keep on reminding us 'it's the day job', which is why I find your laissez-faire attitude to finding out the root cause so inexplicable.

It's boring.

Bearing failure - got too hot, got shit in it, not got enough preload. I already know the answer!

No you don't, you're guessing. If you knew the answer it wouldn't be a multiple choice answer.

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:15 am

weeksy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:12 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:04 am Good grief, is there no wish to understand what actually caused the failure - no spirit of inquiry? I'm not sure whether Trinity is that concerned or not, but I know I would be. You spend good money on a brand new bike and stuff fails after 4k and it's just 'whatever'... ?

But what will it change ?

Bad practice at the factory? (If enough people feed back/complain - although I wouldn't hold my breath). Ultimately it's a cost for Triumph and a customer that loses the use of their bike for a day or so.

LOL I'm just not seeing it mate. The 'factory' don't care... the dealer doesn't care, no-one cares. It's just 'one of those things'. Lets face it, they could in theory look at the bearing and essentially it 'looks' OK.... what will that then tell them ?

weeksy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:19 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:15 am

weeksy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:12 am

But what will it change ?

Bad practice at the factory? (If enough people feed back/complain - although I wouldn't hold my breath). Ultimately it's a cost for Triumph and a customer that loses the use of their bike for a day or so.

LOL I'm just not seeing it mate. The 'factory' don't care... the dealer doesn't care, no-one cares. It's just 'one of those things'. Lets face it, they could in theory look at the bearing and essentially it 'looks' OK.... what will that then tell them ?

You've hit the nail on the head there Steve.

No-one gives a fuck, obviously.

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:22 am

weeksy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:19 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:15 am

Bad practice at the factory? (If enough people feed back/complain - although I wouldn't hold my breath). Ultimately it's a cost for Triumph and a customer that loses the use of their bike for a day or so.

LOL I'm just not seeing it mate. The 'factory' don't care... the dealer doesn't care, no-one cares. It's just 'one of those things'. Lets face it, they could in theory look at the bearing and essentially it 'looks' OK.... what will that then tell them ?

You've hit the nail on the head there Steve.

No-one gives a fuck, obviously.

That's society.... as long as Trinity gets her bike sorted for trip, the world is good.

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:16 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:14 am

mangocrazy wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:10 am

As you keep on reminding us 'it's the day job', which is why I find your laissez-faire attitude to finding out the root cause so inexplicable.

It's boring.

Bearing failure - got too hot, got shit in it, not got enough preload. I already know the answer!

No you don't, you're guessing. If you knew the answer it wouldn't be a multiple choice answer.

I mean it's not going to be a new or interesting answer, all the things it could be are well established. You could pretty much follow a flow chart in a book to find out what went wrong, hence: boring. The solution is almost certainly going to be the same in all cases - fit a new one, correctly!

FWIW OEMs care very much about this sort of thing and all warranty claims made through a franchise dealer make their way back to the mothership eventually. Trinity's bearing will be logged (should be logged ) on some Triumph system somewhere. It might just be a one off blip, it might not be. If it's just a one time thing I'd bet their response would be the same as mine: "not installed correctly, happens sometimes". If it is a multi-blip problem that's when they'll start saying "not installed properly, better go check the production line" etc.

'course, if you have lots of these sorts of blips going on you might be in a 'bigger fish to fry' situation!

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:34 am FWIW OEMs care very much about this sort of thing and all warranty claims made through a franchise dealer make their way back to the mothership eventually. Trinity's bearing will be logged (should be logged ) on some Triumph system somewhere. It might just be a one off blip, it might not be. If it's just a one time thing I'd bet their response would be the same as mine: "not installed correctly, happens sometimes". If it is a multi-blip problem that's when they'll start saying "not installed properly, better go check the production line" etc.

'course, if you have lots of these sorts of blips going on you might be in a 'bigger fish to fry' situation!

This was the point I was trying to make (obviously not very well). Someone, somewhere should be collating these failures and analysing them. As you say, it may be a one-off, it may not. Either way the root cause of the failure needs to be understood. Then you decide whether it needs further (production line) investigation or not.

That's a solid "should" that one

I do get involved with warranty work occasionally, but it's only very occasionally. After all the boring answers have already been filtered out basically