How many of you have had professional coaching to improve your road riding

[Horse]

I'm still confused as to how some people happily seek out - sport or hobby, work, whatever - support, information, training, but biking seems the odd one out. But some people really seem to hate trainers

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

Fair point

Something that Spin and I have both done is to look outside of 'typical' uk training. And look for different teaching methods too.

I did a 3 day US learner course which showed me how poor, in many ways, the riding standard of typical Brit riders is. Then completing their instructor course showed how poor instructors were.

[Bigyin]

Can the coach keep up?

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it, both CSS and another, I went faster when Couch called me names and told me to follow him faster or give up and sell my bike.

That worked for you at the time as a motivation, but again on track ....does that count as a bad role model you learned from <devils advocate mode>

No offence meant to couchy at all as i know him and how he rides but the "bad role model to learn from" is something that has come up recently and i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

[The Spin Doctor]

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

It's a funny thing... the IAM types are keen to tell me "but you're just doing the same things we do but saying it's something different"... and the IAM haters are keen to tell me "you're just doing the same things as the IAM".

Neither actually ASK what I do

[The Spin Doctor]

As for riders I look at and think how or wow there’s none at club level or trackdays as I see that as all achievable if I was younger, fitter or cared anymore. But move up to national and International racing and I’m regularly in awe of the riding skills and there’s no way I could ever do what they do.

Try reading 'Winning Ugly' by Brad Gilbert.

It's a remarkably motivating book. And I absolutely hate tennis.

I wrote about what I learned from that book in my own 'MIND over MOTORCYCLE'.

[The Spin Doctor]

i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

Don't misquote me. I did NOT "mention it in relation to riders you have ridden with". I was responding to your statement where you said that in your opinion, a rider could learn better cornering lines by following other riders because you believed you had benefited that way.

I asked how you - or anyone else - knows that the rider they are following is using good lines if the rider doing the following doesn't know what constitutes a good line in the first place. How do they judge? When they stay on the road? When they run off the road?

[Horse]

i couldnt quantify why it was mentioned in relation to some riders i have ridden with and what constituted a "bad role model" ...... perhaps Spin could explain as he mentioned it more than once ?

Don't misquote me. I did NOT "mention it in relation to riders you have ridden with". I was responding to your statement where you said that in your opinion, a rider could learn better cornering lines by following other riders because you believed you had benefited that way.

I asked how you - or anyone else - knows that the rider they are following is using good lines if the rider doing the following doesn't know what constitutes a good line in the first place. How do they judge? When they stay on the road? When they run off the road?

I fear you have misunderstood BY. I think - and will leave you to check back - that he later qualified his comment about riding with others (and the quality of their riding) when viewed from his existing knowledge gained from police advanced driving.

If that's what you're referring to. I may have misunderstood...

[Noggin]

Track tuition is a hard one to quantify too, I've had it ... CSS

My one day, road, cornering course effectively included all the elements of CSS Level 1. But with 1:1 coaching for the whole day and for much lower price.

Obviously there were differences: None of the glamour of pits and track, just a car park to start in. No cones on the road corners, you had to learn to identify those points for yourself. And no flag marshals, up to you to decide when to slow.

If Beancounter reads this, he might be able to say whether it was beneficial for him.

FWIW, Spin's 2 day cornering sessions cover far more.

I had a similar experience (from a learning point of view) - I showed my first riding buddy the CCS leaflet many many years ago and said I was considering it. After the next two morning rideouts, he pointed out that we'd covered the syllabus!!

Probably cos most people have at some time or another been harangued by IAM types and now would rather run barefoot over hot coals that deal with that sort of thing - and training can be perceived to be with someone like an IAM type!

It's a funny thing... the IAM types are keen to tell me "but you're just doing the same things we do but saying it's something different"... and the IAM haters are keen to tell me "you're just doing the same things as the IAM".

Neither actually ASK what I do

I think the issues is that too many IAM take a "know it all/god-like" approach to inflicting their 'knowledge on unsuspecting people, which results in those people grouping all instructors into the same brackets.

I've learnt that I learn better when it's with someone I can laugh with - my two French teachers are great and we laugh in every lesson, it makes it fun! I react badly to being 'instructed' from the 'know it all level'!! But if someone will talk to me and chat and laugh, then I'll learn loads

For you, part of the issue is that people read things in the tone of voice they expect. So whilst you write in a chatty helpful way, anyone who has been IAM'd will read what you write in a totally different tone of voice. Not sure how you address that tho!

[The Spin Doctor]

I fear you have misunderstood BY. I think - and will leave you to check back - that he later qualified his comment about riding with others (and the quality of their riding) when viewed from his existing knowledge gained from police advanced driving.

If that's what you're referring to. I may have misunderstood...

I was responding to the assertion that an inexperienced rider can learn by "following riders who knew what they were doing". I said that someone with next to no experience couldn't reliably know who was and who wasn't a good role model. Someone who is already well up the ladder of learning has insights that inexperienced riders don't have.

[The Spin Doctor]

I had a similar experience (from a learning point of view) - I showed my first riding buddy the CCS leaflet many many years ago and said I was considering it. After the next two morning rideouts, he pointed out that we'd covered the syllabus!!

The difference is that CSS break down the overall goal into smaller, bite-sized pieces which are easier to chew and swallow. For each chunk, they cover the topic first in theory, then offer the opportunity to practice that particular technique in a controlled environment, followed by feedback on how you performed and what needs to be changed, then you get the chance to apply that correction, before moving onto the next topic. It's a way to structure coaching that aids the learning process immensely.

I use the same structured approach but without a handy track, I use the road, choosing the routes to set different challenges.

Your buddy may - or may not - have done the same. I don't know. But my experience (directly when I myself was a novice, and indirectly through talking to trainees) is that most new riders who are shown the ropes by more experienced riders are simply told "follow me and do what I do". How do they know what the rider ahead is doing if he / she doesn't explain? I certainly didn't. How do you know who is riding well enough to follow? I remember one ride on my 125 following a much more experienced (well, he'd passed his test two years earlier) rider who was busy telling me I was too slow, and cleared off into the distance. I passed him a few minutes later pulling his Norton Dominator out of a hedge.

I think the issues is that too many IAM take a "know it all/god-like" approach to inflicting their 'knowledge on unsuspecting people, which results in those people grouping all instructors into the same brackets.

Which is exactly why I long since divorced and distanced myself from the IAM and RoSPA. I do not respond well to being talked down to myself - I get quite arsy actually, which is probably why I respond to 'you instructors are all the same' comments! We're NOT all the same, and anyone who has prior experience of the IAM and has also experienced my approach (or Horse's back in the days when he was a trainer himself) would know that. [/quote]

I've learnt that I learn better when it's with someone I can laugh with - my two French teachers are great and we laugh in every lesson, it makes it fun! I react badly to being 'instructed' from the 'know it all level'!! But if someone will talk to me and chat and laugh, then I'll learn loads

It's all about creating a relaxed learning environment.

Slightly off topic, something I have discovered in the last fifteen months is that switching briefings to Zoom, rather than trying to do them on the day over a cuppa at a cafe and services, has achieved this in a way I really didn't expect. I actually thought that it would be the other way round, that people would find the Zoom environment alien and disruptive. In fact, quite a few people have remarked that being able to sit in comfort in their own home and at a time that suits them has really helped. They're not so nervous, they are comfortable with a cuppa and not sweating (or freezing) in bike kit, nor are they pressured to take things in immediately before riding - they have time for some reflective thinking before the course on the road.

For you, part of the issue is that people read things in the tone of voice they expect. So whilst you write in a chatty helpful way, anyone who has been IAM'd will read what you write in a totally different tone of voice. Not sure how you address that tho!

Astute observation. Really all I can do is carry on doing what I try to do... to explain in a way that allows the reader to see the benefits for himself / herself, rather than say "this is what you will do and trust me, it's good for you".

[weeksy]

Which is exactly why I long since divorced and distanced myself from the IAM and RoSPA. I do not respond well to being talked down to myself - I get quite arsy actually, which is probably why I respond to 'you instructors are all the same' comments! We're NOT all the same, and anyone who has prior experience of the IAM and has also experienced my approach (or Horse's back in the days when he was a trainer himself) would know that.

In your mind you may have distanced yourself from them, but that doesn't mean your potential clients have.

[Rockburner]

Which is exactly why I long since divorced and distanced myself from the IAM and RoSPA. I do not respond well to being talked down to myself - I get quite arsy actually, which is probably why I respond to 'you instructors are all the same' comments! We're NOT all the same, and anyone who has prior experience of the IAM and has also experienced my approach (or Horse's back in the days when he was a trainer himself) would know that.

In your mind you may have distanced yourself from them, but that doesn't mean your potential clients have.

To add to that, I'd also say that after reading the conversations in Staying Alive: you (Spin) have not differentiated your methods of communication from the 'advanced-rider-norm' much, if at all. Sorry to say it, but it's true: which is why most of the forum members rarely visit Staying Alive, and why you (Spin) tend to get the responses to your posts that you do.

I know I'm being rude here in this post, but there comes a time when things have to be put bluntly.

[The Spin Doctor]

Which is exactly why I long since divorced and distanced myself from the IAM and RoSPA. I do not respond well to being talked down to myself - I get quite arsy actually, which is probably why I respond to 'you instructors are all the same' comments! We're NOT all the same, and anyone who has prior experience of the IAM and has also experienced my approach (or Horse's back in the days when he was a trainer himself) would know that.

In your mind you may have distanced yourself from them, but that doesn't mean your potential clients have.

I would say I have distanced myself in more than just my mind - I'm happy to explain the differences to those who want to listen. And I've been cast as the devil incarnate by more than a few IAM and RoSPA types over the years One senior RoSPA examiner (he was from Scotland, I recall) told me I was "dangerous" because I didn't agree with some of his statements, and I couldn't possibly know as much about riding as him, an ex-police rider.

But the perception in other peoples' minds - that's a very different problem. For everyone who gets a positive experience from the IAM, there seems to be another who has a thoroughly bad experience. And I definitely put myself in the latter category. The trouble is that unless those riders are prepared to look, they do assume that "all advanced training is the same". It's not, and I can easily demonstrate that. So can Horse.

But trying to chance that perception is why I do engage (or at least I attempt to) with people who have a negative view of what I can offer. I'm not going to persuade everyone, I know that, any more than I succeeded in explaining why I do what I do to that RoSPA examiner

But there will be some riders who are in two minds about whether or not post-test training can offer them anything, and more than anyone, it's those fence-sitters I hope to sway.

[weeksy]

I don't think anyone is being rude yet..... i'm hoping we keep it that way

I'm ok currently with how this has gone/going.

[The Spin Doctor]

To add to that, I'd also say that after reading the conversations in Staying Alive: you (Spin) have not differentiated your methods of communication from the 'advanced-rider-norm' much, if at all. Sorry to say it, but it's true: which is why most of the forum members rarely visit Staying Alive, and why you (Spin) tend to get the responses to your posts that you do.

I know I'm being rude here in this post, but there comes a time when things have to be put bluntly.

No, not rude at all. It's simply a statement of how you see it. I'm fine with that.

I'm disappointed you see it that way, but it's my problem to fix, not yours.

[weeksy]

To add to that, I'd also say that after reading the conversations in Staying Alive: you (Spin) have not differentiated your methods of communication from the 'advanced-rider-norm' much, if at all. Sorry to say it, but it's true: which is why most of the forum members rarely visit Staying Alive, and why you (Spin) tend to get the responses to your posts that you do.

I know I'm being rude here in this post, but there comes a time when things have to be put bluntly.

No, not rude at all. It's simply a statement of how you see it. I'm fine with that.

I'm disappointed you see it that way, but it's my problem to fix, not yours.

Isn't that likely to be because you're seen as a 'safety' thing ?

When i go MTB training it's seen as a jumping/trail progression/skills.... Which will essentially make me 'safer' but that's not how it's sold, it's sold as "learn to jump better" for example.

So how do you persuade people that you're not just going to make them ride the same roads slower than they'd want ?

My perception of 'you' as in the organisations we usually see, is fat old boring men who hold me up in traffic/roads and wear day-glo jackets and 'polite' vests... Until you can change that perception, there's a million riders who'll never use you.

[Horse]

So how do you persuade people that you're not just going to make them ride the same roads slower than they'd want ?

My perception of 'you' as in the organisations we usually see, is fat old boring men who hold me up in traffic/roads and wear day-glo jackets and 'polite' vests... Until you can change that perception, there's a million riders who'll never use you.

Ironically, when we set up Blue Riband (as mentioned earlier) it was a deliberate action to not call it an 'advanced' course. Trouble was, that was what potential punters looked for.

Later, I advertised one day 'coaching' sessions, to problem solve. Never had a single enquiry.

[Hairybiker84]

I'm quite surprised with the negative attitude to the IAM, a friend and I both did our advanced a few years ago and I couldn't endorse it enough. Sure I was sceptical at first, I'd rode for 30 years and knew it all (not). I even had a woman observer allocated to me, what - a woman riding a motorcycle better than me? We met up once, occasionally twice each week, all weathers and I learnt more in those few months than I had in the previous 30 years. None of the people I met came across as talking down to me.
I do think there is a lot of people that need to get the right attitude into their heads before they engage in any form of training, if you think someone is coming across as 'knowing it all' you've definitely got the wrong one! Having said that, there are many different ways of putting over a similar message.
You've got to want to be there and learn, trust me, I've been the most disruptive person in the class, I was among the youngest in my year at school and ended up being one of the oldest in my apprenticeship - unfortunately I'd been working for a year in between and was so much more mature than those straight from school (I thought). Can't say I'm particularly proud of the way I behaved but I digress.
You will learn a lot more if you go with an open mind and listen to what people say, even more if you participate and get some dialogue going. No-ones forcing you to go. My time with the IAM has definitely saved me from at least 1 serious accident and who knows how many more. You end up riding differently and don't tend to get in so many 'close shaves' because you're not riding where you would have been.
Look on the bright side, gotta be better than a speed awareness 'course'

[The Spin Doctor]

Isn't that likely to be because you're seen as a 'safety' thing ?

When i go MTB training it's seen as a jumping/trail progression/skills.... Which will essentially make me 'safer' but that's not how it's sold, it's sold as "learn to jump better" for example.

So how do you persuade people that you're not just going to make them ride the same roads slower than they'd want ?

My perception of 'you' as in the organisations we usually see, is fat old boring men who hold me up in traffic/roads and wear day-glo jackets and 'polite' vests... Until you can change that perception, there's a million riders who'll never use you.

There's no simple answer to that - apart from saying I've lost quite a lot of weight over lockdown, I don't wear hi-vis (see Science Of Being Seen if you want to know why) and you will set off a good rant if you try to tell me that POLITE jackets have any positive safety function whatsoever.

Along with the Biker Down organiser, I got into trouble with the manufacturer of those POLITE vests as it happens, they sent a threatening letter to KFRS and I had to stop talking about them when I was delivering SOBS on Biker Down. Somehow they heard that I had responded to a question at one of the presentations.

What I will say is that I don't believe the 'slower is safer' mantra one inch. But neither do I agree that 'progress' in the IAM sense is the be-all of riding. It's all about intelligent decision-making.

Years ago, I had a VD'er out on a course in the Peaks. He admitted he was probably a bit too quick for his own good and wanted a course that allowed him to ride quickly but avoid killing himself. He turned up, and he was riding the road like the TT circuit. And when I suggested that he wasn't riding in a way that allowed him to cope with anything going wrong, he struggled. He switched to riding like a granny. He wasn't enjoying it, and I wasn't enjoying it either, frankly...

We'd already overrun by half an hour when I decided to try one more approach, something I avoid for obvious reasons. I said "I'll ride the road as if there were no speed limits - tell me what you see".

At the end of the ride, he said "you were ballistically quick in some places, but much slower in others".

"Why?"

He finally twigged. "The places you opened it up were the places you'd looked for hazards and couldn't see any threats."

That's what I'd been trying to get over. We need to know what can go wrong, where it can go wrong, how it can go wrong, and why it can go wrong, because then we can do something to minimise the risks at that point.

But what I CANNOT do is tell YOU - or anyone else - what's the RIGHT level of risk to take. Riding isn't 'perfectly safe' (something that Scottish RoSPA examiner tried to tell me 30-odd years ago), it's simply as safe or as risky as we choose to make it. My point is that it's a damn sight riskier if we don't know what risks we're taking. All I try to do is get riders to a place where they are better informed to make their decisions.

I do say this often enough that I hope people WOULD understand my approach... maybe I've been saying it in SA too much and not enough here

[The Spin Doctor]

Ironically, when we set up Blue Riband (as mentioned earlier) it was a deliberate action to not call it an 'advanced' course. Trouble was, that was what potential punters looked for.

Later, I advertised one day 'coaching' sessions, to problem solve. Never had a single enquiry.

Ditto... I originally called my courses 'extended training' to make the point that they carried on where DAS left off.

Tumbleweed...

[Rockburner]

I'm quite surprised with the negative attitude to the IAM, a friend and I both did our advanced a few years ago and I couldn't endorse it enough. Sure I was sceptical at first, I'd rode for 30 years and knew it all (not). I even had a woman observer allocated to me, what - a woman riding a motorcycle better than me? We met up once, occasionally twice each week, all weathers and I learnt more in those few months than I had in the previous 30 years. None of the people I met came across as talking down to me.
I do think there is a lot of people that need to get the right attitude into their heads before they engage in any form of training, if you think someone is coming across as 'knowing it all' you've definitely got the wrong one! Having said that, there are many different ways of putting over a similar message.
You've got to want to be there and learn, trust me, I've been the most disruptive person in the class, I was among the youngest in my year at school and ended up being one of the oldest in my apprenticeship - unfortunately I'd been working for a year in between and was so much more mature than those straight from school (I thought). Can't say I'm particularly proud of the way I behaved but I digress.
You will learn a lot more if you go with an open mind and listen to what people say, even more if you participate and get some dialogue going. No-ones forcing you to go. My time with the IAM has definitely saved me from at least 1 serious accident and who knows how many more. You end up riding differently and don't tend to get in so many 'close shaves' because you're not riding where you would have been.
Look on the bright side, gotta be better than a speed awareness 'course'

I think it depends enormously on your experience with interactions with IAM riders.

As I said earlier, I've seen some atrocious behaviour and attitudes from IAM riders, some genuinely dangerous and idiotic (arrogant and aggressive) riding and a genuine disbelief that they've done anything wrong when later questioned about it.