revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Something else to consider is that the newer research uses eye-tracking technology. They wouldn't have had that in '79 - a forward-tilted helmet wouldn't necessarily tell you precisely where the rider was actually looking though it is tiring to be constantly looking up with the head down.

The text says 'eye marker' and 'fixation points'.

I haven't read the paper, but I do know that the latest eye tracking technology simply wasn't available back then.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:12 pm I haven't read the paper, but I do know that the latest eye tracking technology simply wasn't available back then.

Well, yes, the latest better anything wasn't available before it was available

But even dodgy clockwork string and rubberband etchasketches aren't "a forward-tilted helmet wouldn't necessarily tell you precisely where the rider was actually looking".

Have a read, there's a blurry picture (to be honest, you can't distinguish any detail) of the kit and plots of where they looked.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:12 pm

Wossname wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:01 pm No, sorry....not him, tho I know the name! It was more than 20 years ago, an ex-police rider. He had some other phrases in my earpiece that have always stayed with me - "lift yer eyes!" being one of the most useful ones - still is!

Personally, I always found that to be another of the useless bits of information that litters the 'advanced techniques' canon.

Granted, on it's own it may seem simplistic, but it was always used with a discussion of exactly those aspects - why, where, what for, and sometimes when? There's a tendency, without that succinct reminder, to focus too close and lose the advance warning of situations, bend "shapes", traffic etc which gives you clues as to what may need extra attention when they get closer. Looking in the distance doesn't stop you looking close as well.

I think I know what Spin means. The example I typically use to explain the difference is the at-height classic of "don't look down!" - where the stressed person just focusses on 'look down', so does.

Instead, give a useful prompt, which means that the other person does have to figure out the [better] alternative for themselves, possibly going through a few lesser options first.

So: "Look up, choose which rung to hold onto next".

In a sort of hierarchy:
Don't look down (at the controls/surface/etc
Look up
Look for ____

So, "Which way does the road go?" "Look over the hedge", etc.

Another trainer would say 'Relax Relax Relax' over the radio. Have you ever tried relaxing in a stressful situation? My alternative: "Check for tension" we would have talked through this before the ride "Tense and release", later just the check prompt, as it all became part of the process.

Wossname wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:32 pm
Granted, on it's own it may seem simplistic, but it was always used with a discussion of exactly those aspects - why, where, what for, and sometimes when? There's a tendency, without that succinct reminder, to focus too close and lose the advance warning of situations, bend "shapes", traffic etc which gives you clues as to what may need extra attention when they get closer. Looking in the distance doesn't stop you looking close as well.

On it's own it IS simplistic - defined as "treating complex issues and problems as if they were much simpler than they really are".

It is part of a back and forth, left and right (and behind!) scan and search process to create situational awareness.

Did you read the extract from the paper that suggests that novices DO look far enough ahead, but lack the lateral scanning?

Yes, but I think that's only to be expected as novices. They have to be helped to learn that things that aren't directly in front of you are also important, maybe more so as they'll often already be closer, and harder to trace accurately (pedestrians, junctions with traffic, blind areas which can change - the list is endless) They also need well developed peripheral vision and scanning habits which aren't instinctive. "Fixating" further down the road as mentioned isn't going to help them either. Fixating full stop doesn't help.

Horse wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:08 pm Well, yes, the latest better anything wasn't available before it was available

But even dodgy clockwork string and rubberband etchasketches aren't "a forward-tilted helmet wouldn't necessarily tell you precisely where the rider was actually looking".

Have a read, there's a blurry picture (to be honest, you can't distinguish any detail) of the kit and plots of where they looked.

The latest set ups involve tiny eye-tracking cameras - they can pinpoint precisely where the fovea is aimed. They catch the tiny eye movements that happen without head movement and are amazingly precise.

Wossname wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:20 pm Yes, but I think that's only to be expected as novices. They have to be helped to learn that things that aren't directly in front of you are also important, maybe more so as they'll often already be closer, and harder to trace accurately (pedestrians, junctions with traffic, blind areas which can change - the list is endless) They also need well developed peripheral vision and scanning habits which aren't instinctive. "Fixating" further down the road as mentioned isn't going to help them either. Fixating full stop doesn't help.

All good reasons not to 'lift your vision' then

Let's be 100% honest. The only reason for looking 'further ahead' is to go faster.

Having taught all levels of rider from complete 'never been on a bicycle' novice to police riders fancying something a bit different from the standard stuff, most riders with post-test qualifications aren't scanning laterally anything like enough. They're very proud of their ability to catch a glimpse of the road half a mile ahead through a half-overgrown gateway, yet completely miss the gap in the stone wall that they just shaved past whilst setting up their view three hundred metres ahead around the bend.

The Norfolk Hugger site put up a cornering video shot by one of their own road safety officers that supposedly showed a good line round a bend, where he had to take a sudden evasive swerve right away from a van nosing cautiously out of a blind driveway from behind a high hedge and fence. The thing was, the house and driveway was there to be seen before he even turned-in to the corner. He was so busy telling us about his 'long view' he completely ignored what was about to get close up and very nearly too personal.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 am

Horse wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:08 pm Well, yes, the latest better anything wasn't available before it was available

But even dodgy clockwork string and rubberband etchasketches aren't "a forward-tilted helmet wouldn't necessarily tell you precisely where the rider was actually looking".

Have a read, there's a blurry picture (to be honest, you can't distinguish any detail) of the kit and plots of where they looked.

The latest set ups involve tiny eye-tracking cameras - they can pinpoint precisely where the fovea is aimed. They catch the tiny eye movements that happen without head movement and are amazingly precise.

Pah! Old tech.

You need facial recognition AI.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:56 am

..... The thing was, the house and driveway was there to be seen before he even turned-in to the corner. He was so busy telling us about his 'long view' he completely ignored what was about to get close up and very nearly too personal.

That's a good example of your earlier point. His "long view" will/should have spotted that as something that will need more attention in a moment, and then attended to it as it came close. There's no point at all in the long view otherwise, I agree.

Wossname wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:03 pm

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:56 am

..... The thing was, the house and driveway was there to be seen before he even turned-in to the corner. He was so busy telling us about his 'long view' he completely ignored what was about to get close up and very nearly too personal.

That's a good example of your earlier point. His "long view" will/should have spotted that as something that will need more attention in a moment, and then attended to it as it came close. There's no point at all in the long view otherwise, I agree.

Perspectives change. The driveway was visible, what wasn't so obvious was that it was a blind exit... so it needed re-examining from closer up.

Which bring me full circle... back and forth, left and right... a scan that creates situational awareness.

Wossname wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:03 pm

The Spin Doctor wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:56 am

..... The thing was, the house and driveway was there to be seen before he even turned-in to the corner. He was so busy telling us about his 'long view' he completely ignored what was about to get close up and very nearly too personal.

His "long view" will/should have spotted that as something that will need more attention in a moment, and then attended to it as it came close.

There's an overlap with daytime headlamps here. I've heard people say "look how far away you can see see that headlamp!". But you don't get clobbered from far away.