In todays news...

[Yorick]

Straight talking Aussies

"Russia hasn't been real good at the law lately," he said.

"We don't expect Russia is in a position to talk about international law given their rejection of it so consistently and so brazenly with their invasion of Ukraine."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-66016518

[Mussels]

I saw this and though of Pony.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65808712

"A lot of male customers as well find it a relief," she says, of being a woman in the industry. "They're just like, 'Oh, great!' - they're not having to be a bloke."

This bit gets me, if she'd just said "No idea, I'm the plumber" it would have been clearer.

Again and again, someone working for the removals firm passed Robson as she toiled and asked, "Where do you want this, then?"
Three times she found herself having to explain: "It's not my house, I'm not married to the man who's moving in, I'm just fixing the heating."

[westers151]

I saw this and though of Pony.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65808712

"A lot of male customers as well find it a relief," she says, of being a woman in the industry. "They're just like, 'Oh, great!' - they're not having to be a bloke."

This bit gets me, if she'd just said "No idea, I'm the plumber" it would have been clearer.

Again and again, someone working for the removals firm passed Robson as she toiled and asked, "Where do you want this, then?"
Three times she found herself having to explain: "It's not my house, I'm not married to the man who's moving in, I'm just fixing the heating."

I don't recall any laws prohibiting women from doing a trade, so the lack of them in that role can only be attributed to their lack of interest in doing it. As for the lack of diversity, what a load of rubbish. The trades are very diverse, with a large multi cultural workforce; the fact that there are few women involved can hardly be labelled as "lack of diversity". Lack of women wanting to do a messy job such as a trade, yes, but not lack of diversity.

[Screwdriver]

Agree with both of the above. While there is no reason at all why women cannot do those jobs traditionally held by men, no-one is presenting an argument for WHY "it would be better" if there was equality of outcome.

We have equal opportunity and generally speaking, those opportunities are simply not being pursued. Largely I suggest, because women simply don't want to do that type of work.

[Noggin]

I saw this and though of Pony.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65808712

"A lot of male customers as well find it a relief," she says, of being a woman in the industry. "They're just like, 'Oh, great!' - they're not having to be a bloke."

This bit gets me, if she'd just said "No idea, I'm the plumber" it would have been clearer.

Again and again, someone working for the removals firm passed Robson as she toiled and asked, "Where do you want this, then?"
Three times she found herself having to explain: "It's not my house, I'm not married to the man who's moving in, I'm just fixing the heating."

I don't recall any laws prohibiting women from doing a trade, so the lack of them in that role can only be attributed to their lack of interest in doing it. As for the lack of diversity, what a load of rubbish. The trades are very diverse, with a large multi cultural workforce; the fact that there are few women involved can hardly be labelled as "lack of diversity". Lack of women wanting to do a messy job such as a trade, yes, but not lack of diversity.

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school and told off by my mother (although she also discouraged me from a girl career because 'she' didn't like it!! )

Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm. Similar to being constantly told that "that (BB, Blade,TLs etc) is a bit big for a girl isn't it?" but random strangers!!

Definitely no laws prohibiting it but how much encouragement is given at an age where the choices are made? (I'd be happy to find out things have changed, but I'm not that sure they have!)

[Noggin]

Agree with both of the above. While there is no reason at all why women cannot do those jobs traditionally held by men, no-one is presenting an argument for WHY "it would be better" if there was equality of outcome.

We have equal opportunity and generally speaking, those opportunities are simply not being pursued. Largely I suggest, because women simply don't want to do that type of work.

See my reply above. Those that are interested have historically been discouraged. Or at the minimum, not encouraged.

I know many women who would have taken that route but couldn't due to lack of careers advice or being told they couldn't

I would have preferred almost any trade job than faffing about trying to be girly!

But then, if you, as a guy, didn't ever mention the wish to be a hairdresser or dressmaker or nursery teacher, you won't know how subtle the discouragement is - and I know that a lot of guys do just believe that women aren't interested in being electricians, plumbers, mechanics

[MrLongbeard]

Those that are interested have historically been discouraged. Or at the minimum, not encouraged.

Back what when I went through the useless career guidance guff the trades were only suggested for those were not expected to do very well academically, male or female.

[westers151]

I saw this and though of Pony.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65808712


This bit gets me, if she'd just said "No idea, I'm the plumber" it would have been clearer.

I don't recall any laws prohibiting women from doing a trade, so the lack of them in that role can only be attributed to their lack of interest in doing it. As for the lack of diversity, what a load of rubbish. The trades are very diverse, with a large multi cultural workforce; the fact that there are few women involved can hardly be labelled as "lack of diversity". Lack of women wanting to do a messy job such as a trade, yes, but not lack of diversity.

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school and told off by my mother (although she also discouraged me from a girl career because 'she' didn't like it!! )

Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm. Similar to being constantly told that "that (BB, Blade,TLs etc) is a bit big for a girl isn't it?" but random strangers!!

Definitely no laws prohibiting it but how much encouragement is given at an age where the choices are made? (I'd be happy to find out things have changed, but I'm not that sure they have!)

I agree about the lack of encouragement being a factor, but equally, if someone really wanted to do a job, they'll find a way to do it themselves, although a bit of encouragement to do it is beneficial. I can see that some, without the encouragement, could give up easily.

As a bloke, my careers advice was laughably non existent. I remember a careers advisor coming to our school and them asking, "What do you want to do?" I didn't have a clue, so it was a short conversation, and I came out none the wiser. After Uni I fell into IT sales, and never looked back - I'm 100% certain that I wouldn't have been given that as a career choice Mind you, this was in the mid 80's, and I don't think they'd got their head around what a career meant.

[Noggin]

I agree about the lack of encouragement being a factor, but equally, if someone really wanted to do a job, they'll find a way to do it themselves, [/b]although a bit of encouragement to do it is beneficial. I can see that some, without the encouragement, could give up easily.

As a bloke, my careers advice was laughably non existent. I remember a careers advisor coming to our school and them asking, "What do you want to do?" I didn't have a clue, so it was a short conversation, and I came out none the wiser. After Uni I fell into IT sales, and never looked back - I'm 100% certain that I wouldn't have been given that as a career choice Mind you, this was in the mid 80's, and I don't think they'd got their head around what a career meant.

I agree about that in some ways. But equally, not everyone and it's more a case in girls. If they are put off just a little, most of the time they will go with 'the norm'. Some change as they get older and retrain, many don't.

I really wanted to be either a teacher or a hairdresser. One parent was anti one option, the other parent anti the second option - school was a bit 'meh', as you say, careers advice did nothing because I wasn't allowed to do the options I'd like to. I did neither. Didn't really achieve much else because, whilst I was good at most of the jobs I did, I wasn't really bothered about any of them, no passion!

It is prevalent in adolescent girls, more than boys, to not push ahead if there is something that they are interested in - combination of lack of confidence and lack of encouragement. Lots of writings on this. And if a girl wants to do something out of the norm, they have to be seriously tough minded to actually follow that path - and not many are.

By the time most have the confidence to say 'sod it', most are on a different path or have family and a change of career meaning retraining is just not possible.


Like I said - most, not all

Those that are interested have historically been discouraged. Or at the minimum, not encouraged.

Back what when I went through the useless career guidance guff the trades were only suggested for those were not expected to do very well academically, male or female.

I doubt very much that any careers bod would have suggested the trades we are talking about for women when you were at school, they certainly didn't when I was. However lacking in academic ability. Sewing or cooking probably, but not plumber, electrician, mechanic!



It's sad really because actually, historically, many of the technological inventions have been created by women. Some of the most amazing scientists were women, although many were prevented from publicising their work and getting recognition at the time. I

Women were fully able to be mechanics etc when needed. But when men stopped fighting each other, women had to go back and look after the family. There were no longer considered 'able' to do anything else. Sad

Hedy Lamar is known as an actress but she was also an amazing scientist/inventor who was constantly knocked back because she was a beautiful movie star

https://massivesci.com/articles/hedy-la ... frequency/

&

A Mighty Girl
23 March
For Women's History Month, we're honoring Hedy Lamarr - the glamorous movie star from the black-and-white era of film who co-invented a device that helped make possible the development of GPS, Bluetooth, and Wi-Fi technology!
Born in Austria in 1914, the mathematically talented Lamarr moved to the US in 1937 to start a Hollywood career. Throughout the 1930s and 1940s, she was considered one of cinema's leading ladies and made numerous films; however, her passion for engineering is far less known today. Her interest in inventing was such that she set up an engineering room in her house complete with a drafting table and wall of engineering reference books. With the outbreak of World War II, Lamarr wanted to apply her skills to helping the war effort and, motivated by reports of German U-boats sinking ships in the Atlantic, she began investigating ways to improve torpedo technology.
After Lamar met composer George Antheil, who had been experimenting with automated control of musical instruments, together they hit on the idea of "frequency hopping." At the time, radio-controlled torpedoes could easily be detected and jammed by broadcasting interference at the frequency of the control signal, thereby causing the torpedo to go off course. Frequency hopping essentially served to encrypt the control signal because it was impossible for a target to scan and jam all of the frequencies.
Lamarr and Antheil were granted a patent for their invention on August 11, 1942, but the US Navy wasn't interested in applying their groundbreaking technology until twenty years later when it was used on military ships during a blockade of Cuba in 1962. Lamarr and Antheil's frequency-hopping concept serves as a basis for the spread-spectrum communication technology used in GPS, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth devices. Unfortunately, Lamarr's part in its development has been largely overlooked and her efforts weren't recognized until 1997, when the Electronic Frontier Foundation gave her an award for her technological contributions. Hedy Lamarr passed away in 2000 at the age of 85 and, in 2014, she was as long last inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame for her invention of a "Secret Communication System" many years ago.

[gremlin]

I find it hard to reconcile myself to this sort of discrimination, even if it is well intentioned:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65949212


"Born and bred in south London, Karl, Cyril and Yvonne are the founders of Black Seed, which claims to be the first venture capital firm in Europe that only invests in and supports black-owned businesses."

[Horse]

And the issues / biases Noggin discusses are very possibly linked to that it's far more difficult to identify /diagnose autism in females. So potentially reducing the likelihood that they might be guided towards more suitable careers.

As much as the 'identify as ... ' is mocked, that kids now are able to express views more openly may well improve their lives if it means they don't get pigeon-holed in inappropriate careers

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

[westers151]

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

Eh? Not sure what the last sentance is talking about? Are you saying that some women identify as a cat? (Not an argument, just seeking clarification on what you wrote )

[Horse]

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

Eh? Not sure what the last sentance is talking about? Are you saying that some women identify as a cat? (Not an argument, just seeking clarification on what you wrote )

If you've not heard about, then youre probably not one of those it was intended to inform. However:

https://www.google.com/search?q=child+i ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-gu ... r-identity

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/anore ... explained/

[Potter]

Back what when I went through the useless career guidance guff the trades were only suggested for those were not expected to do very well academically, male or female.

Lol, I bet a fair few wish they hadn't listened to that advice.

[Cousin Jack]

Lots of 'mental health' stuff is linked, and seems to becoming much more prevelant. IMO it needs a LOT more research into the causes.

[Mussels]

I find it hard to reconcile myself to this sort of discrimination, even if it is well intentioned:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65949212


"Born and bred in south London, Karl, Cyril and Yvonne are the founders of Black Seed, which claims to be the first venture capital firm in Europe that only invests in and supports black-owned businesses."

It's like the Stormzy black only scholarships, blatant racism that is ignored. The USA allows positive discrimination but the UK doesn't so I'm surprised they get away with it so easily.
After Stormy set up the black scolarship someone tried doing one for white kids and it was banned, the point was proven but still allowed to happen.

[Horse]

Lots of 'mental health' stuff is linked, and seems to becoming much more prevelant. IMO it needs a LOT more research into the causes.

Prevalent? Or, more likely, identified.

Autism was effectively unknown in mainstream teaching 25 years ago. But the stereotypes existed.

Those, and many other, stereotypes just had different labels.

Now, perhaps autistic or special educational needs / specific learning difficulties.

What terms were in common use 50 or more years ago? 'Village idiot', or 'eccentric genius'?

[Noggin]

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

Eh? Not sure what the last sentance is talking about? Are you saying that some women identify as a cat? (Not an argument, just seeking clarification on what you wrote )

I know of a two young girls that 'pretended' to be cats or puppies when they were youngsters (up to about 10 years old). None of us had any idea it could be linked to autism. But given some behavioral issues as well, that does seem like a high probability

Lots of 'mental health' stuff is linked, and seems to becoming much more prevelant. IMO it needs a LOT more research into the causes.

Prevalent? Or, more likely, identified.

Autism was effectively unknown in mainstream teaching 25 years ago. But the stereotypes existed.

Those, and many other, stereotypes just had different labels.

Now, perhaps autistic or special educational needs / specific learning difficulties.

What terms were in common use 50 or more years ago? 'Village idiot', or 'eccentric genius'?

Some of it is hormones - especially in females but not exclusively. But over the decades there hasn't been enough research into hormones for either sex. Like the link to alzhiemers with menopause - drastic reduction of three major hormones will 100% affect the body and brain and there is now a link to this.

One of the reasons for the lack of research is that everyone is living longer and older people/older people's health issues have always been a little 'less' important to researchers and many medics than younger issues. Why should they do all that research when the age group is going to die soon anyway.

But now, not only are we all living longer, but the awareness of 'issues' is being recognised much younger - I'm fairly sure (with no scientific background!) that a lot of mental issues will be found, eventually, to have connections to hormones or foods or chemicals rather than just that that person is a bit daft (village idiot) type comments. Hopefully research will find it out sooner rather than later

[Screwdriver]

It's probably less a lack of interest but a lack of encouragement and an active discouragement. When I showed interest in anything other than 'girl' careers I was told not to bother by school and told off by my mother (although she also discouraged me from a girl career because 'she' didn't like it!! )

Women/girls really are NOT given the same career guidance if they show interest in something different to the norm. Similar to being constantly told that "that (BB, Blade,TLs etc) is a bit big for a girl isn't it?" but random strangers!!

Definitely no laws prohibiting it but how much encouragement is given at an age where the choices are made? (I'd be happy to find out things have changed, but I'm not that sure they have!)

You are assuming all men can do exactly what they want. They all want to be plumbers, firemen, deep sea divers builders etc.

That is simply not the case. Most people end up performing a role they can demonstrate aptitude for, if they are even lucky enough to be offered the chance.

Then there is always the now controversial proposition that boys/girls and men/women have distinct physical and emotional traits. Take 1000 boys and girls, test their physical strength and you will discover two perfect gaussian distributions, offset where most boys are stronger. The same is true for virtually ANY metric you care to investigate. Statistically, you can always make inferences (a.k.a. prejudices I grant you) based on solid, statistical evidence.

That does not say anything at all about any given individual.

Good example might be Venus Williams. It is false to say she is not as good as the male tennis players. Take 1000 men at random and she would wipe the floor with all of them. Take one million and a select few might stand a chance of scoring a point. Sub select into the vanishingly small group of professional tennis players and suddenly the statistical evidence become massively skewed.

In that microscopically tiny sample of humanity, Venus would be lucky to get ranked in the top 500 of mixed sex tournament tennis, even in her heyday. The same is true for people who, say, demonstrate an aptitude for I dunno, bricklaying. It's not as highly skilled per se but it does require physical strength, endurance, difficult/dirty working conditions and a mindset which can handle the monotony. No offence to builders/brickies, it is a skill and a valuable one too.

But take 1000 men/women and see how many of each sex have the fortitude to become competent trades or have an inherent aptitude. You will find two overlapping gaussian distribution curves where out of that 1000 of each, let's say 200 boys pass a certain level, but only 2 girls. That is not the same as saying boys are 100 times better (I made the numbers up anyway) but merely that statistically, girls are not going to have the strength, the endurance or even the desire to labour under difficult/dangerous conditions.

Finally from those 1000 boys, 200 of which show some aptitude for the trade, how many of them end up doing that for a living? One or two? No. Probably closer to 0.01 of them. In a large population, very few people get to choose what they want, they end up doing what they can get.

So if your job was to encourage people to find a role, would you tell each and every one of them the same thing? Yes, you can become an astronaut, professional footballer, ballerina, popstar, <whatever>. I would say nine times out of ten you'd be wrong; doing your client a disservice but that's not even close. You'd be wrong and giving those people false hope at a rate ten million times to 1.

Boys, like girls, take whatever they can get and it's not easy for either. The grass is not always greener.

[Horse]

NB ' ... as a cat' is one example that often gets brought up. Filly knows professionally of one girl, I know someone who's daughter says so. In both cases, linked to autism. Gender issues, anorexia? Also links with autism.

I know of a two young girls ... given some behavioral issues as well, that does seem like a high probability

FWIW autism is far more difficult to diagnose in girls, they're much better at adapting and disguising it.

Lots of 'mental health' stuff ... seems to becoming much more prevelant.

Prevalent? Or, more likely, identified.

Those, and many other, stereotypes just had different labels.

What terms were in common use 50 or more years ago? 'Village idiot', or 'eccentric genius'?

And another example was the 'mad kid' who couldn't sit still, kept getting into trouble. Now? Probably ADHD.

There will be more, I'm sure.