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[Saga Lout]

...

Surely that's the point. Businesses liked the EU because it gave them access to a vast army of low paid workers in Eastern Europe which kept wages down and increased profits.

It's my understanding that businesses were allowed to employ migrant workers at 20% under the minimum wage, provided that those jobs had previously been available to UK workers at the correct wage. For example, a haulage company needs HGV drivers, they advertise but are unable to find any British workers. They then widen the search and can find EU workers willing to take the jobs, even at a lower pay rate. No British workers have lost out, they didn't want the jobs in the first place.

What would the haulage company have done without access to that army of low paid workers in Eastern Europe? They would have to raise their wage offer until they'd got enough British drivers. Access to low paid workers in Eastern Europe depressed British wages so British workers would be poorer. Is that what you want?

[Potter]

...

Surely that's the point. Businesses liked the EU because it gave them access to a vast army of low paid workers in Eastern Europe which kept wages down and increased profits.

It's my understanding that businesses were allowed to employ migrant workers at 20% under the minimum wage, provided that those jobs had previously been available to UK workers at the correct wage. For example, a haulage company needs HGV drivers, they advertise but are unable to find any British workers. They then widen the search and can find EU workers willing to take the jobs, even at a lower pay rate. No British workers have lost out, they didn't want the jobs in the first place.

What would the haulage company have done without access to that army of low paid workers in Eastern Europe? They would have to raise their wage offer until they'd got enough British drivers. Access to low paid workers in Eastern Europe depressed British wages so British workers would be poorer. Is that what you want?

This was posted on another thread a while back (What would you miss about Brexit)

I'd miss the doubling of my hourly rate of pay for driving artics (part time) if we re-joined and the Europeans prepared to work for very low wages came back.

My BIL says the same, he reckons his pay and treatment went right up once there were less immigrants willing to work like dogs for less money.

The political left don't actually care about workers, they'd rather have them earning less as long as it means they can stick to their political angst about rich people wanting to eat their babies.

[DefTrap]

Loving that truckers became the champions of Brexit success.
Before that none of them gave a shit about your poor wages and conditions, you were just yet another blue collar service monkey, derided for throwing your Fanta bottles of piss all over the place and the first port of call when it came to kidnappings

[Hoonercat]

Cameron was a remainer, people like that had fingers in EU pies, the filthy rich elites all had something in it for them. Business leaders did, so that they could exploit the pool of cheap, dirty cheap labour, exploiting people who'd work for that kind of money.

Lol, you really don't have a clue, do you?
Your average Bulgarian farm worker can earn 2 years' salary in 6 months working in the UK. They quite literally spend 6 months working abroad, followed by (should they wish to do so*) 18 months propping up the local bars, the sort of thing people in the UK can only dream of. I bet they feel so exploited

Surely that's the point. Businesses liked the EU because it gave them access to a vast army of low paid workers in Eastern Europe which kept wages down and increased profits.

In 2022, the Seasonal Worker Scheme ensured that those workers had to paid £0.60 per hour above the NLW. For 2023, the Govt decided to drop that back down to NLW. That was nothing to do with being in the EU.

As for increasing profits

An NFU survey carried out during 2022, revealed that £22 million worth of fruit and vegetables has been wasted directly because of workforce shortages in the first half of 2022 alone.

In 2022, the Seasonal Worker Scheme allowed for 30,000 visas, later extended by another 10,000 visas as farms could not get the labour locally. For 2023, that number is 45,000 with the option of another 10,000. The Govt are importing far more labour, while driving down the salaries.

[Saga Lout]

...

In 2022, the Seasonal Worker Scheme allowed for 30,000 visas, later extended by another 10,000 visas as farms could not get the labour locally. For 2023, that number is 45,000 with the option of another 10,000. The Govt are importing far more labour, while driving down the salaries.

"...farms could not get the labour locally..."

Shouldn't that read "...farms could not get low paid labour locally..."?

They couldn't get the labour when they were offering (say) £10/hour. I bet they would have been inundated if they'd offered £100/hour. Somewhere in between would have been the Goldilocks* rate.


* I.e. just right.

[irie]

The economic and social problems faced by the UK look far worse than those faced by other European countries courtesy of UK news sources showing little or nothing about the social and economic problems being faced by other continental European countries. There's more in news sources about the USA than all continental European countries combined ...

Well, yes, we're not in Europe any more (hadn't you noticed? ) but we're courting the USA and the Pacific. Why would they maintain focus on something we've left behind? Europe is just sooo yesterday, the media looks to the future.

The UK is in Europe but not in the EU.

[Ant]

It's funny how the plastic left are in love with the EU - the very thing which worked on low pay, yet they bleat on about how they want a pay rise......

[Potter]

Loving that truckers became the champions of Brexit success.

It's not just truckers, all types of blue collar workers are having to be paid more and UK businesses stand to benefit now imports of cheap foreign goods are getting more expensive.

This means you have to pay a bit more and it contributes to inflation.
So people aren't really wrong when they say that inflation has risen partly due to Brexit, it's because people are now being paid more and foreign goods cost more.

[Ant]

If the doctors (whos union is spreading misinformation about them all being on £14ph) get their 30% pay rise, can you imagine what that'll do to inflation?

[Noggin]

All this low pay to seasonal workers stuff is interesting from my side of the channel cos, due to EU regulations, companies were no longer allowed to employ seasonal staff on low wages. They HAD to be paid the same as the minimum wage in France. So all the chalet hosts that used to get paid £70 a week for the season with the other £20 kept back on given as a 'bonus' for not fucking up at the end of the season now earn a full time minimum wage equal to that earned by the locals.

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay? Maybe it was the government ignoring what was being done and not enforcing the EU law?

Maybe


There were a couple of companies here that would employ 'volunteers' and 'give' them pocket money so that they weren't actually employees or being paid a wage. This was also illegal and they were 'controlled' (not sure of the equivalent word over there) and made to show working hours and wages - which they couldn't. MASSIVE fines.


So, whilst it was probably true that EU workers were earning less than the minimum wage, I'm reasonably sure that this was already illegal, just allowed to continue. And whilst the wage was lower than the UK minimum wage, they maybe didn't feel so exploited as they were earning more than back in their own country? Like student used to travel across europe back when you were all kids picking grape/other fruit on the cheap so they could travel and earn some 'pocket money' en route?


But, I'm sure most on here will find a way to show that companies in the UK not paying the minimum wage to non uk residents is definitely the EU's fault! Cos, you know. EU bad!!

[Ant]

Well Noggin, there's a reason they all 'left' mainland Europe and came over here.......perhaps pay was already lower on the mainland and higher here to begin with, within the framework of the EU. However, the wages were deffo lower on the mainland. Once the freedom of movement came in, the wages started to stagnate, for that very reason.

[Kneerly Down]

Wagner seems to be in control of 2 cities in Russia (Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh), both of over a million population.
Putin has closed the highway between Rostov and Moscow and looks like there is military confrontation between state and Wagner forces in Russia.
Interesting times!

[Cousin Jack]

Interesting indeed.

Choose between a meglomanic Putin or a power mad General with a private army.

[Kneerly Down]

Hopefully will shake out to a bringing back of Russian troops from Ukraine and a non-expansionist regime move into Moscow, but not Prigozhin.
I'm way out of touch with who's who in Moscow and the Russian military these days...it's been 16 years since I worked there. Still got the keys to the apartment in Moscow but not in a hurry to return there...probably ever!

[Potter]

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay?

I don't know about that, but here is another angle.

My BIL reckoned his place (big supermarket chain warehouse/distribution) was a nightmare because it was mostly staffed by immigrants who will work like a dog, take all overtime available and live in shared accommodation. They were here to make the maximum money possible and would work their arses off for crazy hours to do it.

Fair play to them, but what it meant was the normal UK lads who didn't want the overtime because they had a life outside of work, and only wanted to work like a normal person for a normal wage, all got squeezed out. The management wanted these grafters who would take on extra hours at a moments notice and work like madmen without complaint.

He reckoned things got better after a lot of the immigrants started to thin out a bit.

So it wasn't just about the money.

[Yambo]

Interesting indeed.

Choose between a meglomanic Putin or a power mad General with a private army.

One thing Prigozhin is not, is a soldier.

Mad maybe but a General? No way.

[Noggin]

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay?

I don't know about that, but here is another angle.

My BIL reckoned his place (big supermarket chain warehouse/distribution) was a nightmare because it was mostly staffed by immigrants who will work like a dog, take all overtime available and live in shared accommodation. They were here to make the maximum money possible and would work their arses off for crazy hours to do it.

Fair play to them, but what it meant was the normal UK lads who didn't want the overtime because they had a life outside of work, and only wanted to work like a normal person for a normal wage, all got squeezed out. The management wanted these grafters who would take on extra hours at a moments notice and work like madmen without complaint.

He reckoned things got better after a lot of the immigrants started to thin out a bit.

So it wasn't just about the money.

I get that too.

The point I was trying to make was, the rules are there that if you work in another EU country, your pay must be the same as the minimum wage of the country you are working in. So the whole 'they work for less' thing isn't really valid.

They may well be willing to share accommodation and work stupid hours for the overtime (although that is regulated as well - I wasn't allowed to hand in a time sheet with more than 48 hours on it, regardless of the fact that I may have worked more).

The fault for locals not getting jobs in that situation should be laid at the doors of the employers that make those choices, not at the EU who actually regulate against unfair pay and working more hours than legal!

I do get it though, just get a bit peeved at constantly reading how the EU allows for unfair wages etc etc etc - it doesn't! It's regulated very strongly and whilst some companies may disregard the rules, certainly in France they will get caught out and penalised.

[Ant]

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay?

I don't know about that, but here is another angle.

My BIL reckoned his place (big supermarket chain warehouse/distribution) was a nightmare because it was mostly staffed by immigrants who will work like a dog, take all overtime available and live in shared accommodation. They were here to make the maximum money possible and would work their arses off for crazy hours to do it.

Fair play to them, but what it meant was the normal UK lads who didn't want the overtime because they had a life outside of work, and only wanted to work like a normal person for a normal wage, all got squeezed out. The management wanted these grafters who would take on extra hours at a moments notice and work like madmen without complaint.

He reckoned things got better after a lot of the immigrants started to thin out a bit.

So it wasn't just about the money.

I get that too.

The point I was trying to make was, the rules are there that if you work in another EU country, your pay must be the same as the minimum wage of the country you are working in. So the whole 'they work for less' thing isn't really valid.

It is absolutely valid. The average UK person can't sustain their life on minimum wage, so when wages started to stagnate because they could be lowered to that direction, the only people prepared to work for the cheap wages, were the cheap EU migrants from poor countries.

As Potter has said any many identified, the 2 point 4 children life in a nice house somewhere nice, can't be sustained on minimum wage. However, the 10 bulgarians all holed up in an HMO certainly can, then send the money back out, out of the UK economy.

[Mr. Dazzle]

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay?

I don't know about that, but here is another angle.

My BIL reckoned his place (big supermarket chain warehouse/distribution) was a nightmare because it was mostly staffed by immigrants who will work like a dog, take all overtime available and live in shared accommodation. They were here to make the maximum money possible and would work their arses off for crazy hours to do it.

Fair play to them, but what it meant was the normal UK lads who didn't want the overtime because they had a life outside of work, and only wanted to work like a normal person for a normal wage, all got squeezed out. The management wanted these grafters who would take on extra hours at a moments notice and work like madmen without complaint.

He reckoned things got better after a lot of the immigrants started to thin out a bit.

So it wasn't just about the money.

TBF that sounds like an argument against a pure capitalist economy rather than Breggzit.

[Ant]

So, are you sure it was the EU that allowed low pay?

I don't know about that, but here is another angle.

My BIL reckoned his place (big supermarket chain warehouse/distribution) was a nightmare because it was mostly staffed by immigrants who will work like a dog, take all overtime available and live in shared accommodation. They were here to make the maximum money possible and would work their arses off for crazy hours to do it.

Fair play to them, but what it meant was the normal UK lads who didn't want the overtime because they had a life outside of work, and only wanted to work like a normal person for a normal wage, all got squeezed out. The management wanted these grafters who would take on extra hours at a moments notice and work like madmen without complaint.

He reckoned things got better after a lot of the immigrants started to thin out a bit.

So it wasn't just about the money.

TBF that sounds like an argument against a pure capitalist economy rather than Breggzit.

Absolutely spot on.

Another thing which didn't add up, were the anti-capitalists, anti-elite protestors, who are all waving their EU flags. You couldn't get any more elite and capitalist than the EU