Will Russia invade the Ukraine?

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

This thread has got very weird

[Supermofo]

in the spirit of online discussion tradition @Supermofo I suspect you may have meant "virtue signalling"?

Why you.......

Were right of course

[Count Steer]

in the spirit of online discussion tradition @Supermofo I suspect you may have meant "virtue signalling"?

I quite like the idea of 'virtual signalling' though. It's a bit like semaphore with no flags or an Aldis lamp with no bulb.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

in the spirit of online discussion tradition @Supermofo I suspect you may have meant "virtue signalling"?

I quite like the idea of 'virtual signalling' though. It's a bit like semaphore with no flags or an Aldis lamp with no bulb.

BMW and Audi drivers have been practicing it for years in Suffolk

[Screwdriver]

It is weird. This is not a black and white situation, clearly there were diplomatic solutions available to this obvious threat. Russia had just invaded Crimea, no one seemed to mind. Then a quarter of a million troops amass on the Ukrainian border, armed to the teeth. It’s not rocket science.

The West chose to do nothing. They chose wrong.

Yes Putin is an evil, criminal thug. Anyone here surprised to hear that? Dozens of gigantically expensive super yachts and half the London property market are a bit of a clue. We know what Russia is and yet have allowed them to run riot after telegraphing their intentions. Millions of people displaced, thousands dead because we called his bluff.

He’s in a corner now, threatening nukes. Let’s just hope nobody calls his “bluff” again….

[Mr Moofo]

He’s in a corner now, threatening nukes. Let’s just hope nobody calls his “bluff” again….

I think is exactly what you have to do. He isn't going to stop until he is skint, dead or scared

[Felix]

Nut Jobs demands for Peace. Sorry for the poor mans main stream media

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60785754

[slowsider]

in the spirit of online discussion tradition @Supermofo I suspect you may have meant "virtue signalling"?

Grammar nazi !

[slowsider]

in the spirit of online discussion tradition @Supermofo I suspect you may have meant "virtue signalling"?

I quite like the idea of 'virtual signalling' though. It's a bit like semaphore with no flags or an Aldis lamp with no bulb.

Like a Lidls lamp but not so desirable.

[DefTrap]

it, DT saying he'd seen nothing about it

Certainly very little.
I'm always interested, when folk take the "opposite view" of what's being reported, how they've come to that conclusion.

I'm (still) not convinced that 99% of western medias, supported by a multitude of good journalists, are susceptible to government influence across the board. I just don't think the unanimity is very likely. You don't think the guardian, for example, that haven for stoopid lefties, would be all over exposing Ukrainian Nazis?

But yeah try and convince me in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're glued to the dark web waiting for an opportunity to accuse the sheeple.

[Hoonercat]

Nut Jobs demands for Peace. Sorry for the poor mans main stream media

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60785754

Ukraine would have to undergo a disarmament process to ensure it wasn't a threat to Russia.

Just lol.

[Count Steer]

If we're doing well supported, well armed Nazi units, shall we discuss The Wagner Group and Dmitriy Utkin next? You know, Putin's 'private army'. Just for balance like.

'The Wagner Group itself was first active in 2014, along with Utkin, in the Luhansk region of Ukraine. The company's name comes from Utkin's own call sign "Wagner" after the German composer Richard Wagner, which he is said to have chosen due to his passion for the Third Reich (Wagner being Adolf Hitler's favorite composer).'

[Mussels]

Russia is desperately recruiting ethnic minorities through agencies to reduce ethnic Russians in body bags. They are promising* Russian passports to central Asian immigrants for three months in the army, central Asian governments are not happy and threaten prison for anyone who fights for Russia.

* It's not clear if the agencies promising this are telling the truth.

[irie]

Russia is desperately recruiting ethnic minorities through agencies to reduce ethnic Russians in body bags. They are promising* Russian passports to central Asian immigrants for three months in the army, central Asian governments are not happy and threaten prison for anyone who fights for Russia.

* It's not clear if the agencies promising this are telling the truth.

It appears that 5,000 to 10,000 Russian soldiers have so far died in Ukraine. That's an aweful lot of body bags, many (most?) will have been young conscripts. Many bodies will not have been returned in bags, having been blown to pieces or otherwise unaccounted for.

Mothers and fathers burying their children, brothers and sisters burying their siblings.

[DefTrap]

You're about fifty right? And you've only ever lived in the west and you've only ever really paid attention to western media.
You want me to change fifty years of conditioning, by posting something on a motorbike forum?

Easy example, Jimmy Saville, you'd think that the media would have grabbed that with both hands, but it was radio silence - in fact it was the contrary, he was a media darling.

I'm not sitting here with a tinfoil hat on, I'm just saying that you have to look for the angles.
I've seen enough to make me question the narrative when there is an armed conflict afoot.

Yeah I'm over 50 and an old fule and you're 45 and not, where is this going?
I've no reason to love Ukraine over Russia, or Russia over Ukraine, I'm old enough to remember when "they were the same"" and let's be honest prior to this conflict western media could have given less of a shit, and neither could you. It must be some really deep level subconscious conditioning.

And ffs with savile, we've done that, he was a paedo in plain sight, the media showed us often enough at the time what a creep he was and Joe public cheered him on, if anything the media followed the public mood.

[Mussels]

Something missing from all the coverage is accurate reporting of where all the Russian forces are, I expected a lot more detail. Maybe satellite intelligence isn't as good as we are led to believe.

[DefTrap]

half of the UK would go to war with France if Liz Truss and the tabloids said so.

Well you're assuming we're ALL deeply and significantly aligned in our prejudice. Well I'm telling you I'm actually not and I don't think most are, in this case of Russia vs Ukraine because nobody gave two tosses about Ukraine before this, there's been no opportunity for alignment. And even if there was, why would I take the side of Ukraine against Russia? I'm a Leftie sympathiser, I'm told, surely I would leap on the chance to rage against US-funded-Ukrainian nazis? I wouldn't be able to help myself.

The (UK) public didn't really go along with the Iraq war after all did they? - that surely is a classic case of no-brain good-versus-evil. Good old clean-cut-thankyou-for-your-service-GIJoe versus men-in-dodgy-moustaches-and-dresses-in-the-desert. I mean "they" tried their best - I even had a copy of "Desert Strike" for my Sega MegaDrive where you could enjoy blowing up scuds from your Apache 'copter - but I don't buy that it makes me indoctrinated. (Who knew Sega were in on the plot?)! . But yeah that was a Labour government at the the time wasn't it? Proper bogeymen.

What I find slightly risible is that you think you've sifted through all the hard-to-find evidence and seen the light. If you can do it, so can other proper journalists. And for every man that is indoctrinated there's a significant number who -always- assume they are being lied to.

[Count Steer]

If we're doing well supported, well armed Nazi units, shall we discuss The Wagner Group and Dmitriy Utkin next? You know, Putin's 'private army'. Just for balance like.

'The Wagner Group itself was first active in 2014, along with Utkin, in the Luhansk region of Ukraine. The company's name comes from Utkin's own call sign "Wagner" after the German composer Richard Wagner, which he is said to have chosen due to his passion for the Third Reich (Wagner being Adolf Hitler's favorite composer).'

I don't know if that's apples and apples, I thought they were a 'private' entity and I'd have probably likened them to Blackwater, financed by the government, owned by people in the government and/or well connected, and up to their necks in dodgy shit.
I think they're more along the line of deniable assets, rather than actual official army units.

The Russians don't fuck about though, if they want you gone then I don't think they're too scrupulous, you won't get any arguments from me about them being the moral high ground.

It's something of an aside but, while there are similarities between Blackwater and Wagner (and Azof batallion) one difference in terms of deniability is that Wagner doesn't exist...it can't, private military outfits are illegal in Russia. (But somehow they get transported by the Russian MoD, train at dedicated Russian MoD bases and get bulk passports issued by the government). I suppose if you're going to be really dodgy, being illegal is a good place to start.

[Screwdriver]

Something missing from all the coverage is accurate reporting of where all the Russian forces are, I expected a lot more detail. Maybe satellite intelligence isn't as good as we are led to believe.

Well that would be an extraordinarily dumb move to make all of that information freely available. I am constantly surprised by the idiocy of the Russian military though they may yet prevail by brute force.

Recent story suggests Russia blew up a Ukrainian 3g comms tower which took out their own encrypted communication system. If that's not dumb enough, they then nicked a load of Ukrainian sim cards and started using those. Not only does that allow the opposition to eavesdrop on everything, they can track any individual so Ukraine just sent a Bayraktar to home in on their General. They won't be sending him back in a body bag...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Something missing from all the coverage is accurate reporting of where all the Russian forces are, I expected a lot more detail. Maybe satellite intelligence isn't as good as we are led to believe.

It's probably more likely "they" are not reporting it for two more practical reasons.

- If you know where the enemy are you don't necessarily want them to realise that you know.
- Perhaps more mundanely, all the Satellite data that's privately obtained ain't free!