EICMA

[Scootabout]

It's looking to me as if electric motorcycles are already ticking a few must-haves, and might not be too far off ticking all of them (price, range, charge speed, weight, performance). Range, charging speed and performance are all pretty much there, with price and weight lagging. Even when all the boxes are ticked, charging infrastructure will need to be in place.

They're getting there, but who knows when all six factors will be in place?

[Horse]

Moto Morini Corsara Sport 750 v-twin - looks lovely! Really fresh, innovative styling.

[Bustaspoke]

Moto Bob's done a video on the Yamaha 900's at EICMA

[The Spin Doctor]

It's looking to me as if electric motorcycles are already ticking a few must-haves, and might not be too far off ticking all of them (price, range, charge speed, weight, performance). Range, charging speed and performance are all pretty much there, with price and weight lagging. Even when all the boxes are ticked, charging infrastructure will need to be in place.

They're getting there, but who knows when all six factors will be in place?

We may be sitting here saying "it's not quick enough, doesn't go far enough and weighs too much", but we're not the typical PTW rider even in the UK, and we certainly don't represent the people that the vast majority of motorcycles are being sold to around the planet.

India in particular is seriously ramping up EV bikes, and China has been building them for some time since they introduced ICE PTW bans in some cities quite some while ago.

Elsewhere there are some genuinely ambitious plans to switch to EVs. Kenya's a good example - the vast majority of their electricity is already supplied from renewable sources and there is a serious government-driven effort to switch away from petrol-engined bikes to electric machines. They're not going to be 140 mph missiles, but practical workaday transport.

Even when you do look to Europe / N America / Australasia / Japan, Harley / Livewire aside, I think the biggest issue is that lack of take-up of the technology by the mainstream manufacturers, and I really don't understand that. There are a few low power, short range scooters and mopeds appearing, plus the odd more powerful scoot like BMWs but with the possible exception of Kawasaki, none of the conventional manufacturers appear to be taking electric motorcycles seriously. It CAN be done - just two examples are CAKE and Zero. There are a surprising number of electric delivery scooters in London now - none of which have come from the mainstream manufacturers.

I was astonished that Triumph have shelved their electric bike project after a series of bullish press releases which culminated in a press release saying the TE-1 had the size and dimensions of a Street Triple and offers a "category-leading" 161km / 100mile range plus the performance of a 130 kW (177PS / 175bhp) peak power motor, with a 20-MINUTE 0-80% CHARGE TIME which Triumph themselves say is "a game-changing outcome, faster than today’s equivalent electric motorcycles", all wrapped up in a bike that weighs just 220kg, which they say is "Up to 25% lighter than comparable electric motorcycles currently available". Then they parked it, with Steve Sargant saying in January that with "technology that exists today, the battery packs are relatively heavy and the technology at the moment limits the amount of range you can get."

And even more remarkable are the remarks of Ducati’s European head Fabrizio Cazzoli who said in Feb this year: "Electrification will be a long way away, not only for Ducati but for the entire motorcycle industry because right now it is not a completely viable solution..." That was less than two years after Ducati showed off their new MotoE machine, having won the contract to replace the bikes provided by the Italian Energica brand, and said: "the road ahead is still very long, but in the meantime, we have laid a first important ‘brick’ and that the 2023 Ducati V21L is the company’s most significant step toward producing a street motorcycle for consumers... The goal is to create, as soon as the technology allows it, a Ducati electric vehicle for road use that is sporty, light, exciting, and able to satisfy all enthusiasts."

It's almost as if Ducati and Triumph have put their heads together and said 'let's push back against the ICE ban - if we do nothing, the EU will have to delay it".

What baffles me is all the talk about hydrogen, bio-derived alcohol-based fuels and synthetic fuels. They seem to be ignoring the ZERO TAILPIPE EMISSIONS element of the forthcoming EU / UK regulations - it's not just Carbon Zero that puts the brakes on the ICE - ANY burning creates toxic NOx products and the goal is to significantly reduce the levels as a public health issue.

[The Spin Doctor]

Moto Morini Corsara Sport 750 v-twin - looks lovely! Really fresh, innovative styling.

Ha... and built in China too, from the company’s factory in Taizhou, Zhejiang.

[mangocrazy]

It's almost as if Ducati and Triumph have put their heads together and said 'let's push back against the ICE ban - if we do nothing, the EU will have to delay it".

Or maybe, just maybe, they actually realise that the target of 2035 for a ban on ICE motorcycles is unrealistic and unachievable and have a desire to stay in business beyond 2035...?

[Bustaspoke]

Ha... and built in China too, from the company’s factory in Taizhou, Zhejiang.

These days Morini are a Chinese brand

[The Spin Doctor]

It's almost as if Ducati and Triumph have put their heads together and said 'let's push back against the ICE ban - if we do nothing, the EU will have to delay it".

Or maybe, just maybe, they actually realise that the target of 2035 for a ban on ICE motorcycles is unrealistic and unachievable and have a desire to stay in business beyond 2035...?

I just gave you the specs of the TE-1, and reminded you that Ducati have enthusiastically talked up the importance of Moto-E.

Certainly there are challenges, but if you don't try, you certainly won't achieve.

[mangocrazy]

I'm viewing this debate about e-bikes through the lens of someone who, if still able, wants to continue to ride and buy motorcycles beyond 2035. I will need them to be sufficently light, sufficiently powerful, have sufficient range and be sufficiently affordable. The word 'sufficient' is the variable here and will mean different things to different people. For me, there is no way that I can see e-bikes fitting my criteria by the time 2035 rolls round.

Now you can spout manufacturer's aspirational specifications at me until you're blue in the face but I'm not buying it/them, either literally or figuratively. It will take many more years after 2035 for e-bikes to offer the same value and specification that ICE bikes do currently and everyone should actually fess up and admit that now rather than sleepwalking into the 2035 sunset date.

The obvious approach from my POV is for the powers that be to recognise this and push back the motorcycle ICE sunset date to 2050 at the earliest. This does not mean that manufacturers will give up, but it does mean that the two-wheeled manufacturers can take advantage of technological battery developments that will inevitably accelerate as more EV cars are produced and sold. The technology will get there, but it won't be ready for e-bikes at a sensible price point at 2035, of that I am absolutely certain.

To excuse two-wheelers from the 2035 cut-off and allow ICE bikes to continue after that date will have virtually zero impact on emissions targets. We make up such a vanishingly small part of the transport mix that no-one would actually notice. Just take a walk by the side of a reasonably busy road leading into one of our cities and observe just how incredibly few motorbikes you see compared to all the cars, vans, trucks and buses there are filling our roads. As a user group we are totally numerically insignificant, and as such we are totally insignificant in the drive to reduce and eeventually eliminate tail-pipe emissions.

[Horse]

We make up such a vanishingly small part of the transport mix that no-one would actually notice. ... As a user group we are totally numerically insignificant, and as such we are totally insignificant in the drive to reduce and eeventually eliminate tail-pipe emissions.

In the UK, perhaps. But as Spin noted, internationally we're a miniscule market.

Unfortunately, there is often emphasis from the industry about how eco bikes are and wonderful bikes are for reducing congestion, etc. Industry can't have it both ways. If they want that eco claim, they'll need to earn it.

[mangocrazy]

We make up such a vanishingly small part of the transport mix that no-one would actually notice. ... As a user group we are totally numerically insignificant, and as such we are totally insignificant in the drive to reduce and eeventually eliminate tail-pipe emissions.

In the UK, perhaps. But as Spin noted, internationally we're a miniscule market.

I presume you're agreeing with me here? Or are you trying to say that internationally, particularly in Asia, the market is significant? I can certainly see that a low-priced, commuter e-bike could be a big hit in Asia, as long as the punters had somewhere to charge all these commuter bikes.

Unfortunately, there is often emphasis from the industry about how eco bikes are and wonderful bikes are for reducing congestion, etc. Industry can't have it both ways. If they want that eco claim, they'll need to earn it.

Bikes are great for reducing congestion and that applies equally to e-bikes and ICE bikes. My point is that unless the e-bike value proposition is equivalent to an ICE bike, in whatever market segment you're talking about, it simply isn't going to fly and punters won't buy. Trying to talk up the e-bike proposition when it's so far short of the ICE alternative simply doesn't work.

[Taipan]

Moto Morini Corsara Sport 750 v-twin - looks lovely! Really fresh, innovative styling.

That's most superbikes for me. If they're bright green i'd say Kawasaki, and orange KTM, but after that's its a blurred merger of shellsuits!

[Noggin]

Some slightly odd looking bikes from there (well, hopefully if imgbb works this time!!) -

[Noggin]

It’s missing some wheels

[Noggin]

This seriously looks like a transformer

[Noggin]

Sorry. He doesn’t seem to have found the XSR

[Scootabout]

The obvious approach from my POV is for the powers that be to recognise this and push back the motorcycle ICE sunset date to 2050 at the earliest. This does not mean that manufacturers will give up, but it does mean that the two-wheeled manufacturers can take advantage of technological battery developments that will inevitably accelerate as more EV cars are produced and sold. The technology will get there, but it won't be ready for e-bikes at a sensible price point at 2035, of that I am absolutely certain.

If ICE cars stop being produced after 2035, after a while there won't be much demand for petrol/diesel any more. So presumably the supply will be phased out and the cost will increase - perhaps dramatically, especially if further taxation is introduced to accelerate it. Those still running big bikes might find it to be an even more expensive hobby than it is now. And maybe we/they will be moaning about a lack of filling stations in the way that we now point to a lack of charging points?

[Scootabout]

Some slightly odd looking bikes from there (well, hopefully if imgbb works this time!!) -

There's nothing odd about those bikes in the first picture, Noggin. In fact, they are the only ones with the engine mounted the right way round

[mangocrazy]

The obvious approach from my POV is for the powers that be to recognise this and push back the motorcycle ICE sunset date to 2050 at the earliest. This does not mean that manufacturers will give up, but it does mean that the two-wheeled manufacturers can take advantage of technological battery developments that will inevitably accelerate as more EV cars are produced and sold. The technology will get there, but it won't be ready for e-bikes at a sensible price point at 2035, of that I am absolutely certain.

If ICE cars stop being produced after 2035, after a while there won't be much demand for petrol/diesel any more. So presumably the supply will be phased out and the cost will increase - perhaps dramatically, especially if further taxation is introduced to accelerate it. Those still running big bikes might find it to be an even more expensive hobby than it is now. And maybe we/they will be moaning about a lack of filling stations in the way that we now point to a lack of charging points?

There's still going to be a very large user base of petrol/diesel cars after the 2035 sunset date for sale of ICE vehicles. That will decline over time, but not immediately.

Besides, I'm seriously thinking of placing a bet that the sunset date for ICE vehicles gets pushed back to 2040 and beyond.

[The Spin Doctor]

I'm viewing this debate about e-bikes through the lens of someone who, if still able, wants to continue to ride and buy motorcycles beyond 2035. I will need them to be sufficently light, sufficiently powerful, have sufficient range and be sufficiently affordable. The word 'sufficient' is the variable here and will mean different things to different people. For me, there is no way that I can see e-bikes fitting my criteria by the time 2035 rolls round.

Unfortunately, you're not the target user demographic for motorcycle sales.

As a user group we are totally numerically insignificant, and as such we are totally insignificant in the drive to reduce and eeventually eliminate tail-pipe emissions.

Which is why we're not going to get special dispensations