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Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:32 pm
by MingtheMerciless
mboy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:59 pm
weeksy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:39 pm
Still getting the FuelEX to my 'nice' sort of feeling... it's not far off but i would ideally like a little less air in the front end. So just picked up some volume spacers which should help there.
Contrary to popular belief... You want less spacers in the fork ideally, not more... Run less sag with less spacers up front, and fine tune with a little compression damping to stop the fork blowing through its travel.
Air forks have a naturally increasing spring rate as they go through their travel anyway, increasing this by artificially reducing the spring volume chamber normally just results in an overly active fork in the top half of its travel and an overly harsh one in the bottom half...
I found best setup on a 150mm Fox 36 with GRIP2 damper to be 1 volume spacer and around 20% sag, with a little low and high speed compression added to assist bottom out resistance. Even 2 volume spacers (which increased the compression ratio from 1.9 to 2.3 as measured with a shockwiz) made it feel too progressive... I had a go on a mates with 5 in once @ 150mm travel. He was running 35% sag (so giving up all his useful travel, not to mention about 1deg of head angle too) but still couldn't access the last 30mm of travel!
If you want the best of both worlds... Plush off the top, controlled bottom out resistance and oodles of mid stroke support, then get one of these...
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-di ... idge2.html
Absolute game changer for me... I now have mid stroke support I could only dream of previously, along with super supple off the top feeling and perfectly controllable bottom out resistance.
This just popped on my Instagram feed:
https://trutune.co.uk/products/insert?v ... 9053790386
More volume from an insert? I’ve just taken the last token out my e-bikes zebs and they’re feeling a lot better (more psi and damping tweeks required) and I might try to borrow a shock wiz from someone (cough
@weeksy
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:58 pm
by weeksy
MingtheMerciless wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:32 pm
mboy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:59 pm
weeksy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:39 pm
Still getting the FuelEX to my 'nice' sort of feeling... it's not far off but i would ideally like a little less air in the front end. So just picked up some volume spacers which should help there.
Contrary to popular belief... You want less spacers in the fork ideally, not more... Run less sag with less spacers up front, and fine tune with a little compression damping to stop the fork blowing through its travel.
Air forks have a naturally increasing spring rate as they go through their travel anyway, increasing this by artificially reducing the spring volume chamber normally just results in an overly active fork in the top half of its travel and an overly harsh one in the bottom half...
I found best setup on a 150mm Fox 36 with GRIP2 damper to be 1 volume spacer and around 20% sag, with a little low and high speed compression added to assist bottom out resistance. Even 2 volume spacers (which increased the compression ratio from 1.9 to 2.3 as measured with a shockwiz) made it feel too progressive... I had a go on a mates with 5 in once @ 150mm travel. He was running 35% sag (so giving up all his useful travel, not to mention about 1deg of head angle too) but still couldn't access the last 30mm of travel!
If you want the best of both worlds... Plush off the top, controlled bottom out resistance and oodles of mid stroke support, then get one of these...
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-di ... idge2.html
Absolute game changer for me... I now have mid stroke support I could only dream of previously, along with super supple off the top feeling and perfectly controllable bottom out resistance.
This just popped on my Instagram feed:
https://trutune.co.uk/products/insert?v ... 9053790386
More volume from an insert? I’ve just taken the last token out my e-bikes zebs and they’re feeling a lot better (more psi and damping tweeks required) and I might try to borrow a shock wiz from someone (cough @weeksy
@crust has it, but I'm sure he'd be ok with it
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:45 pm
by mboy
MingtheMerciless wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:32 pm
This just popped on my Instagram feed:
https://trutune.co.uk/products/insert?v ... 9053790386
More volume from an insert? I’ve just taken the last token out my e-bikes zebs and they’re feeling a lot better (more psi and damping tweeks required) and I might try to borrow a shock wiz from someone (cough @weeksy
I was massively sceptical about this, but met the guys behind it @ Ard Rock this year and had a play with one…
I’m still not sure I fully understand the science behind it, but I do know that it definitely actually does what it claims to do…
The thing is though… Do you actually need it? Or do you just need to ditch the tokens/volume spacers that are in your fork already? The latter being much cheaper, and often all that is required…
I love my Diaz Runt, but it’s not for everyone and though it gives me more tunability and fantastic performance, for most people removing all the volume spacers would have sufficed…
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:57 pm
by weeksy
So
From FOX’s tuning guide:
36 FLOAT
170mm travel: 0 spacers installed from factory. 5 spacers maximum.
160mm travel: 1 spacers installed from factory. 6 spacers maximum.
150mm travel: 2 spacers installed from factory. 7 spacers maximum.
140mm travel: 4 spacers installed from factory. 8 spacers maximum.
130mm travel: 5 spacers installed from factory. 9 spacers maximum.
So are you saying remove even the standard? Or just don't add more?
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:01 pm
by MingtheMerciless
mboy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:45 pm
MingtheMerciless wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:32 pm
This just popped on my Instagram feed:
https://trutune.co.uk/products/insert?v ... 9053790386
More volume from an insert? I’ve just taken the last token out my e-bikes zebs and they’re feeling a lot better (more psi and damping tweeks required) and I might try to borrow a shock wiz from someone (cough @weeksy
I was massively sceptical about this, but met the guys behind it @ Ard Rock this year and had a play with one…
I’m still not sure I fully understand the science behind it, but I do know that it definitely actually does what it claims to do…
The thing is though… Do you actually need it? Or do you just need to ditch the tokens/volume spacers that are in your fork already? The latter being much cheaper, and often all that is required…
I love my Diaz Runt, but it’s not for everyone and though it gives me more tunability and fantastic performance, for most people removing all the volume spacers would have sufficed…
No I'm going to have a poke n hope with the forks before going doing the possible snake oil route.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:14 pm
by Mr Moofo
MingtheMerciless wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:32 pm
mboy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:59 pm
weeksy wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:39 pm
Still getting the FuelEX to my 'nice' sort of feeling... it's not far off but i would ideally like a little less air in the front end. So just picked up some volume spacers which should help there.
Contrary to popular belief... You want less spacers in the fork ideally, not more... Run less sag with less spacers up front, and fine tune with a little compression damping to stop the fork blowing through its travel.
Air forks have a naturally increasing spring rate as they go through their travel anyway, increasing this by artificially reducing the spring volume chamber normally just results in an overly active fork in the top half of its travel and an overly harsh one in the bottom half...
I found best setup on a 150mm Fox 36 with GRIP2 damper to be 1 volume spacer and around 20% sag, with a little low and high speed compression added to assist bottom out resistance. Even 2 volume spacers (which increased the compression ratio from 1.9 to 2.3 as measured with a shockwiz) made it feel too progressive... I had a go on a mates with 5 in once @ 150mm travel. He was running 35% sag (so giving up all his useful travel, not to mention about 1deg of head angle too) but still couldn't access the last 30mm of travel!
If you want the best of both worlds... Plush off the top, controlled bottom out resistance and oodles of mid stroke support, then get one of these...
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-di ... idge2.html
Absolute game changer for me... I now have mid stroke support I could only dream of previously, along with super supple off the top feeling and perfectly controllable bottom out resistance.
This just popped on my Instagram feed:
https://trutune.co.uk/products/insert?v ... 9053790386
More volume from an insert? I’ve just taken the last token out my e-bikes zebs and they’re feeling a lot better (more psi and damping tweeks required) and I might try to borrow a shock wiz from someone (cough @weeksy
@MingtheMerciless I have a shockwiz ...
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:32 am
by mboy
weeksy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:57 pm
So
From FOX’s tuning guide:
36 FLOAT
170mm travel: 0 spacers installed from factory. 5 spacers maximum.
160mm travel: 1 spacers installed from factory. 6 spacers maximum.
150mm travel: 2 spacers installed from factory. 7 spacers maximum.
140mm travel: 4 spacers installed from factory. 8 spacers maximum.
130mm travel: 5 spacers installed from factory. 9 spacers maximum.
So are you saying remove even the standard? Or just don't add more?
From experience, go one less than factory fitted... So none for a 160mm fork, 1 for a 150, 2 for a 140 etc...
See how it feels. Be prepared to run less sag than you're used to.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:28 am
by millemille
Mt two pen'orth on air pressure/sag/spacers, based on 30+ years experience with mtb suspension.
1. Start with the factory recommended air pressure and spacers.
2. Measure your laden sag (that's you on the bike in your attack position), you want between 15% and 25% of the total suspension travel as your laden sag. If where you are riding is billiard table smooth you don't need the negative travel for the front wheel to track the ground so you'll be closer to 15% sag, if you are riding somewhere super rough/rocky you do need the negative travel so the front wheel can track the ground so you want to be up at the 25% end.
3. Adjust the air pressure until you've got the sag where it should be
4. Ride the bike, as hard you would do normally on the terrain you are setting the bike up for
5. Look at how much travel you have used. You want to be leaving about 5% of the travel unused through normal riding, so when you get faster or have a big moment there's something left in reserve
6. If you are not using 95% of the travel you remove a spacer and go back to step 2 and start over, if you are using more than 95%/bottoming out then add a spacer and got back to step 2 and start over
7. Keep repeating this until you've got the sag and travel where they should be
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:45 am
by weeksy
Just taken mine apart, it seems i only have 1 vol spacer in there anyway.. not the standard 2.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:32 pm
by crust
Mr Moofo wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:14 pm
@MingtheMerciless I have a shockwiz ...
Ooh, hello.
Have you done the forks on your Rail 9?
Have tried to do mine and physically can't get through the calibration procedure
If you have can you let me know the compression ratio of the forks?
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
by weeksy
Had the bike out on techy trails on the weekend. Riding Dowies and Shuttcastle near/at FoD. The bike performed perfectly though, was happy with the Hillbilly T9 on the front, the rear i don't really mind what i run, so the standard Bontrager is fine.
I've also gone from 1>2 Fox volume spacers on the forks today. The standard setup on my forks is 2 spacers, mine only had one (yeah i know @mboy ) but thought i'd have a play and go to standard of 2 and drop a couple (5 actually) psi from the forks.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:57 pm
by Mr Moofo
crust wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:32 pm
Mr Moofo wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:14 pm
@MingtheMerciless I have a shockwiz ...
Ooh, hello.
Have you done the forks on your Rail 9?
Have tried to do mine and physically can't get through the calibration procedure
If you have can you let me know the compression ratio of the forks?
No, I haven't. That said calibrating them is always a PITA. Why Shockwizz haven't complied a data base of fork x travel X number of tokens type thing is beyond me.
Whilst I have a shockwizz, I am not as convinced about what it tells me, as Weeksy is. I used it to set up the rear on my FlareMax - but then had a conversation with TF Tuned - and they had set it up differently. Something about the progressive nature of Cotics makes them difficult to shockwizz. It came back with the setting that they dialled in, and I have sort of left it there.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:59 pm
by mboy
weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
I've also gone from 1>2 Fox volume spacers on the forks today. The standard setup on my forks is 2 spacers, mine only had one (yeah i know @mboy ) but thought i'd have a play and go to standard of 2 and drop a couple (5 actually) psi from the forks.
It'll feel nicer in the car park...
It'll feel worse on the trail...
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:46 am
by weeksy
mboy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:59 pm
weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
I've also gone from 1>2 Fox volume spacers on the forks today. The standard setup on my forks is 2 spacers, mine only had one (yeah i know @mboy ) but thought i'd have a play and go to standard of 2 and drop a couple (5 actually) psi from the forks.
It'll feel nicer in the car park...
It'll feel worse on the trail...
Well, we'll see on both as i've also been reading up on Fox's site and they recommend my pressure to be 105 psi..... i've been running at 90, so quite significantly lower, i'm wondering how it would feel at 105. However, i'm currently down with lurgy so impossible to find out the answer right now anyway.
Either way, i know where i was with the bike a few days ago in terms of spacers and pressures, so easy to go back to. Might as well spend a bit of winter playing with settings and experimenting.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:04 am
by Mr Moofo
^ RS suggest I need to run with 110-115 psi in my forks - I am generally at 90-95 which give 25% sag.
I realise there is a fashion for having less than 20% sag in the front - but I err on the side of comfort
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:58 pm
by weeksy
Spent 90 mins at the pump track this evening, it's a bit more tame than Reading so I enjoyed it more. Weirdly I was better at rights than lefts, in Reading I was the opposite. It's so hard trying to not touch the brakes though. But both me and the lad really enjoyed it, well, until he stacked it and cut the heck out of his knee.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:11 pm
by weeksy
weeksy wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:46 am
mboy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:59 pm
weeksy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:43 pm
I've also gone from 1>2 Fox volume spacers on the forks today. The standard setup on my forks is 2 spacers, mine only had one (yeah i know @mboy ) but thought i'd have a play and go to standard of 2 and drop a couple (5 actually) psi from the forks.
It'll feel nicer in the car park...
It'll feel worse on the trail...
Well, we'll see on both as i've also been reading up on Fox's site and they recommend my pressure to be 105 psi..... i've been running at 90, so quite significantly lower, i'm wondering how it would feel at 105. However, i'm currently down with lurgy so impossible to find out the answer right now anyway.
Either way, i know where i was with the bike a few days ago in terms of spacers and pressures, so easy to go back to. Might as well spend a bit of winter playing with settings and experimenting.
Can't say in truth if things fell better or worse really... Feels fine, feels good... but is it better... Dunno really. It certainly feels firmer in the playing in the street test and in some ways the bike feels a little unbalanced now as the rear is softer than the front... but out on the trails, it's really hard to see if things are any better/worse.
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:21 pm
by weeksy
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:45 pm
by mboy
For anyone "XL" sized that might be following this thread and thought "I know what I need"... A riding friend of mine is selling his Fuel EX at the moment (ironically
@weeksy to fund the purchase of an Orbea Rise!)...
Details here...
Re: NBD. The "didn't you have one of these?" Trek Fuel ex9.8
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:56 pm
by weeksy
Tell us more
Not for me, just curious really
