Triumph TE-1

[MingtheMerciless]

Lithium dendrite growth

https://www.batterypoweronline.com/news ... ites-grow/

[Horse]

Solid state batteries don't have that issue because there's no gel. They're errr.....solid.

I've just about had enough of you baffling us with science

[Couchy]

I’ve driven most of the current electric cars through my work and they all feel the same ‘engine’ wise, some are quicker but that’s it. How are bike manufacturers going to make electric bikes that feel different ? People buy certain makes as they want a certain feel and engine layout. EV are great for performance in some cases but they’re not for any sort of character and feel. I’d say motorbikes are done once autonomous driving starts appearing.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I think for 90% of riders the engine feel/torque characteristic thing is entirely in their head. You can see that's the case cause so many people say "my V twin has loads of torque" whereas if you actually look at the numbers an equivalent IL4 pisses all over it. People expect a certain behaviour based on the received wisdom that "XXX engine is peaky/torque/grunty/whatever" and then convince themselves they feel that.

Just look how many people swear blind that sending your ECU away in the post to have "something" done to it makes a huge noticeable difference.

Edit: Or perhaps a slightly more subtle example is the cross plane R1s. They have exactly the same firing pattern as the pipe and slippers versions of the VFR, yet people say one is big-bang MotoGP inspired (AFAIK Yamaha have never referred to it as big bang?) and one is a boring bike....

All you need is a cunning marketing campaign to convince people your own EV is torquier/revier etc than someone else's and you're off! Throw in a bit of unnecessary vibration and jobs a goodun

[The Spin Doctor]

I remember a tomorrows world looking at battery tech (it was a LONG time ago) and they were showing a prototype sodium acid battery that powered a small van, it was massive, as in not much load space left and ran at 400C!

That would give the aircon a hard time

[Couchy]

I think for 90% of riders the engine feel/torque characteristic thing is entirely in their head. You can see that's the case cause so many people say "my V twin has loads of torque" whereas if you actually look at the numbers an equivalent IL4 pisses all over it. People expect a certain behaviour based on the received wisdom that "XXX engine is peaky/torque/grunty/whatever" and then convince themselves they feel that.

Just look how many people swear blind that sending your ECU away in the post to have "something" done to it makes a huge noticeable difference.

Edit: Or perhaps a slightly more subtle example is the cross plane R1s. They have exactly the same firing pattern as the pipe and slippers versions of the VFR, yet people say one is big-bang MotoGP inspired (AFAIK Yamaha have never referred to it as big bang?) and one is a boring bike....

All you need is a cunning marketing campaign to convince people your own EV is torquier/revier etc than someone else's and you're off! Throw in a bit of unnecessary vibration and jobs a goodun

I can see that working with cars as how many people think the ultimate driving machine is a near 2 ton 4 cylinder diesel saloon With bikes nah, loads of people I know prefer the feel of a twin/single me included and don’t care about the actual figures. I’ll have an ICE motorbike as long as I can in the garage wherever I ride much or not. By the time decent electric ones are available and tbh I think that’ll take a new battery tech I won’t care. But I still believe bikes don’t have a future even though they could be one solution for a small personal transport

[Horse]

Just look how many people swear blind that sending your ECU away in the post to have "something" done to it makes a huge noticeable difference.

Do you tell people that. Yell it from the hill top, even?

Any idea whatever happened there?

[mangocrazy]

I think for 90% of riders the engine feel/torque characteristic thing is entirely in their head. You can see that's the case cause so many people say "my V twin has loads of torque" whereas if you actually look at the numbers an equivalent IL4 pisses all over it. People expect a certain behaviour based on the received wisdom that "XXX engine is peaky/torque/grunty/whatever" and then convince themselves they feel that.

You're using 'engine feel' and 'torque characteristic' as interchangeable terms when they're not. All the different characteristics of the engine go to make up the engine feel, and torque characteristics are just one part of that. Engine sound, vibration (or lack of it), size and shape of the motor, throttle response and willingness to rev are all contributory factors.

Just look how many people swear blind that sending your ECU away in the post to have "something" done to it makes a huge noticeable difference.

You're not trying to make out that ECU re-flashes are all smoke and mirrors, Shirley? I've had the KTM Duke re-mapped and that made a clear difference, both on the dyno and in rideability. I also bought an aftermarket EEPROM for the Falco to suit mods made to intake and exhaust and that made a huge difference.

Edit: Or perhaps a slightly more subtle example is the cross plane R1s. They have exactly the same firing pattern as the pipe and slippers versions of the VFR, yet people say one is big-bang MotoGP inspired (AFAIK Yamaha have never referred to it as big bang?) and one is a boring bike....

Agreed, but what Yamaha did is to make an IL4 feel and sound like a V4 - a neat trick.

All you need is a cunning marketing campaign to convince people your own EV is torquier/revier etc than someone else's and you're off! Throw in a bit of unnecessary vibration and jobs a goodun

Plus ça change, plus ça même chose...

[Tarmacsurfer]

Bear in mind that with an electric motor you can pretty much put the torque where you want it. For example the TE-1 is faster than a Lamborghini Hurrican from 60 to 100mph. This can be used as a differentiator between bikes.
That said, I believe that connectivity will help drive the market. So Bluetooth, maps, adaptive cruise, lane control etc. All built in to the bike.

[The Spin Doctor]

That said, I believe that connectivity will help drive the market. So Bluetooth, maps, adaptive cruise, lane control etc. All built in to the bike.

I wish they'd do something to stop people nicking it, first!

[Couchy]

Bear in mind that with an electric motor you can pretty much put the torque where you want it. For example the TE-1 is faster than a Lamborghini Hurrican from 60 to 100mph. This can be used as a differentiator between bikes.
That said, I believe that connectivity will help drive the market. So Bluetooth, maps, adaptive cruise, lane control etc. All built in to the bike.

So it’s quicker than a car, is it quicker than a bike as that’s the proper comparison. But still it’ll feel like every other electric motor and for me that’s the problem, we’ll it’s not cos I won’t own one lol

[Mr. Dazzle]

Its perfectly possible to make an electric motor behave like pretty much any configuration of piston engine you want. Indeed, dynos for gearboxes and the like do exactly that.

I suspect there might be a market for electric bikes which feel like piston engines, but I also suspect that market would dry up fairly quickly when people realise they don't actually want their bike to be compromised like a piston engine is.

Its a bit like how everyone says cars need to be manual only, no ABS, rear wheel drive only etc. But if you actually make one like that, no bugger buys it.

[MingtheMerciless]

Needs to be sound like a Tie Fighter or Pod Racer, not a demented milk float. #harleylivewirefail

[Couchy]

Its perfectly possible to make an electric motor behave like pretty much any configuration of piston engine you want. Indeed, dynos for gearboxes and the like do exactly that.

I suspect there might be a market for electric bikes which feel like piston engines, but I also suspect that market would dry up fairly quickly when people realise they don't actually want their bike to be compromised like a piston engine is.

Its a bit like how everyone says cars need to be manual only, no ABS, rear wheel drive only etc. But if you actually make one like that, no bugger buys it.

You’re right for the majority and electric car will be no issue as the majority just drive and don’t care about the method of propulsion. The market for commuter bikes may also go the same way, although I still think bikes don’t fit any future plans especially when autonomous vehicles arrive. I also think people will go back towards cities as personal transport fades away. If it’s easy to make a motor feel different why haven’t Porsche done it in the Taycan ? If you were blindfolded and driving it normally it feels like a Nissan Leaf whereas driving a 911 never feels like a qashqai in the engine department.

[Horse]

Is it correct that some manufacturers, for some models, have 'in-cab' noise? Only a small step on to add a 'rumbler' into the seat and steering wheel extra character.

[The Spin Doctor]

From 'Elevenses' on Wednesday:

With 130kW (177PS / 175bhp) peak power, as well as peak torque of 109Nm (80 lb-ft), performance matches the Speed Triple 1200, with an even faster 0-100mph time. The torque delivery map is directly engineered from a Speed Triple 1200 RS. The standing start acceleration official test results of 3.6 seconds 0-60mph and 6.2 seconds 0-100mph are also impressive.

And there's more to come. The development team believe that with further refinement of the electronics, including the traction control system and front wheel lift control, performance could be enhanced further, harnessing the full torque potential to enable even quicker standing start acceleration.

And Triumph are also keen to point out something else I've noted about electric motorcycles. They may not sound like petrol engines but they have their own distinctive sound track. I likened the Zero to the sound of a jet engine spooling up.

Triumph say the "pure, unique and characterful new electric-Triumph soundtrack builds to a hair-raising and spine-tingling crescendo" that is "distinctive and thrilling". It seems that might have been engineered in via what's described as a "unique helical gear pair primary transmission".

[Mr. Dazzle]

Is it correct that some manufacturers, for some models, have 'in-cab' noise? Only a small step on to add a 'rumbler' into the seat and steering wheel extra character.

Yeah loads do.

Some of them just redirect the natural engine noise your way, Porsche for example put extra "unnecessary" pipework in the inlet tract with little resonator chambers. Others take the much more direct/fake route of playing sounds through the stereo.

Pretty sure some bikes do the former of those two things already.

If it’s easy to make a motor feel different why haven’t Porsche done it in the Taycan?

Cause its thw first electric Porsche. You only have to look at the styling to know it's poudly and unashamedly electric. So why would Porsche want to compromise it by giving it the flaws of an ICE? That's not the idea.

Thinking about it, if you replicated the torque behaviour of an ICE but took away all the noise and vibration you'd just think the electric car was a bit gutless or badly set up. You'd need to artificially massage in the whole package of smells and sounds, which Porsche are hardly gonna do on their first flagship new technology car.

[Couchy]

Is it correct that some manufacturers, for some models, have 'in-cab' noise? Only a small step on to add a 'rumbler' into the seat and steering wheel extra character.

Yeah loads do.

Some of them just redirect the natural engine noise your way, Porsche for example put extra "unnecessary" pipework in the inlet tract with little resonator chambers. Others take the much more direct/fake route of playing sounds through the stereo.

Pretty sure some bikes do the former of those two things already.

If it’s easy to make a motor feel different why haven’t Porsche done it in the Taycan?

Cause its thw first electric Porsche. You only have to look at the styling to know it's poudly and unashamedly electric. So why would Porsche want to compromise it by giving it the flaws of an ICE? That's not the idea.

Thinking about it, if you replicated the torque behaviour of an ICE but took away all the noise and vibration you'd just think the electric car was a bit gutless or badly set up. You'd need to artificially massage in the whole package of smells and sounds, which Porsche are hardly gonna do on their first flagship new technology car.

It’s not about them making the car feel like an ICE, it’s about the manufacturers identity, if all the EV feel the same how do you distinguish between marques ? You’d never mistake a 4cyl for a flat6 or V8 and fans of each won’t want the other.
Like I said so far they all feel the same, once we only have EV’s how will you distinguish between a Porsche and a Ferrari if they feel the same ? Normal cars don’t matter as the majority don’t care.
The Porsche Taycan was fast but it wont sit in my memory of cars I’ve owned or driven, the 911, RR SVR and M4 were much more of an experience and theatre especially the noise and feel.

I’m prob the target market for high end EV and cars and there’s no way I’d buy one till I’m forced too, even then I’ll pick a Nissan Leaf or equivalent, I’ll run an ICE car as long as possible though.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Well Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Porsche, Maserati, Cadillac etc. all made V8 saloons until very recently and people still managed to choose between them.

Likewise pretty much every super SUV out there has a twin turbo V8 and people manage to choose between those too.

So presumably it's not just the engine layout.

Besides, wasn't it out very own Taipan who thought his straight 4 merc was a V6? Certainly someone on here. That's where I started from, most people either can't tell or don't care.

[A_morti]

I'm in that majority. We have a Honda Fit self-charging hybrid (no socket to charge at home). I love when it's on electric-only, it's quiet and so smooth. When the petrol engine kicks in to charge the battery or run the AC, it always sounds a bit like it's broken or feels like it's vibrating badly, but turns out that's just what combustion engines do. My next car will be all-electric.

I've also ridden electric scooters (nothing faster than 45 km/h) and I think they're brilliant. I don't see a long future for ICE scooters. The replacement for my CB300R will be all-electric too - if any of the Japanese makers pull their fingers out in time.