Hub Centre Steering

[MingtheMerciless]

IMG_3472.jpeg (342.57 KiB) Viewed 960 times

Funny front end MTB (ignore the tyres) with a J stroke suspension shape.

[The Spin Doctor]

How do you ride a bike? As in, how do you actually stay on it? How do you corner, brake and all the rest of it? You can't explain it can you? No-one can, you just "do it".

Of course you can explain it. Vittore Cossalter does just that here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Dyn ... 1430308613

And if you can't explain, it's hard to teach!

A certain K.Code thought quite hard about his racing experience and has had some success in that track teaching department.

fundamentally it's something you have to learn for yourself via practice. It's deep seated memory isn't it? You will also never forget! It is - literally - like riding a bike

And within conventional bikes, a 125 track racer feels totally different to ride to a Harley or a Hayabusa. But people manage to ride all three.

The idea that

anything differnet 'feels weird' and we don't like it.

is largely down to a lack of experience of riding different types of bike

And

a huge quantity of their understanding is subconscious

and often wrong.

Shortly after I'd been talking about counter-steering in a classroom session at Brands a couple of years back, I overheard one of the MSV track instructors showing the same group how he steers... by flinging himself sideways off the bike and pulling it down after him, apparently. I noticed that as he flung himself left, the bike rocked sideways to the right on his paddock stands... action and reaction.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I think it was an oil boiler but you're right, the extrusions went into a cross member and the headstock was behind that. It was a beast of a thing.

One came up for sale not long ago, I can't remember what engine it had in it, probably a GSXR1100 lump

I think Steve Burns built one with a GSX1100 engine, which was possibly the one in PB, I could probably find out of anyone is that interested.

[Horse]

IMG_3472.jpeg

Funny front end MTB (ignore the tyres) with a J stroke suspension shape.

Hossack did bicycles recently.

https://thekneeslider.com/norman-hossac ... uspension/

[Mr. Dazzle]

How do you ride a bike? As in, how do you actually stay on it? How do you corner, brake and all the rest of it? You can't explain it can you? No-one can, you just "do it".

Of course you can explain it. Vittore Cossalter does just that here:

You can explain the physics, but I bet you a million quid you can't teach sometime to ride a bike in a classroom. I don't even have a million quid to bet you, that's how confident I am.

If you can, why do you need to do practical lessons and a test?

Our understanding of how to ride a bike is primarily subconscious, thats why we never forget. If it was like Maths or French or FA Cup Winners 1969-89 we would forget.

The idea that

anything differnet 'feels weird' and we don't like it.

is largely down to a lack of experience of riding different types of bike

Yes exactly.

FFE never do well cause they're always competing against 20 years of contrary experience.

[Yorick]

Shortly after I'd been talking about counter-steering in a classroom session at Brands a couple of years back, I overheard one of the MSV track instructors showing the same group how he steers... by flinging himself sideways off the bike and pulling it down after him, apparently. I noticed that as he flung himself left, the bike rocked sideways to the right on his paddock stands... action and reaction.

I'd never heard of CS until about 20 years ago on VD. Us racers always did what was described above and it worked.

WIDR, we didn't need the lessons from folk like you to make it work, it just did.

Maybe road riders need telling ?

[JackyJoll]

Racers were countersteering, only some of them didn’t know it.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I'd never heard of CS until about 20 years ago on VD. Us racers always did what was described above and it worked.

WIDR, we didn't need the lessons from folk like you to make it work, it just did.

Maybe road riders need telling ?

Yeah...People just figure it. Being able to do it doesn't mean you have to be able to explain it. Being able to explain it also doesn't mean you know how to do it!

[Horse]

You can explain the physics, but I bet you a million quid you can't teach sometime to ride a bike in a classroom. I don't even have a million quid to bet you, that's how confident I am.

If you can, why do you need to do practical lessons and a test?

I have taught just one person to get a knee down - although I've never done it myself.

The lesson took place in a showroom, using a bike on its mainstand. Next weekend he told me that he had been successful.

The MSF courses that I used to teach included indoor training for:
- taking the bike off the sidestand, sitting on, starting
- gear changing
- cornering
- lane changes

When I did the MSF instructor course, the weather was so abysmal one day that we abandoned riding outdoors and went indoors to do the 'range management' session (moving two groups between exercises with risk of collisions or instructors getting run over). We replicated groups of riders by candidate instructors walking about.

I taught a pub full of bikers (Northish London MAG) the Slow, Look/Lean/Roll cornering technique. No bikes were harmed, no-one went outside or was sat on a bike. There were some grumbles about having to put drinks down.

Or how about freefall parachute display teams? They use visualisation to plan their manoeuvres, then physically practice co-ordination of individual movements.

However, you used the term 'teach'. That's not the same as 'learn'.



So:
1. Yes, we can teach indoors
2. Successful learning can occur away from a bike
3. Teaching doesn't always result in learning

[Horse]

Racers were countersteering, only some of them didn’t know it.

Not just racers, almost all road riders too.

For some riders, there would be an occasion when they needed to consciously steer (swerve, tighten the line, etc). And it would be that conscious effort, often in a sudden stressful situation, that wouldn't work.

@Dazzle
For example of this, for 'back to biking' riders, we used to introduce this he question during a coffee break. Sit them down, facing a table, with their palms resting on the edge of the table. Get them to move their shoulders from side to side, feel the pressure change in their palms. This was after asking them what they thought they did. Remember, this was people who had ridden before, but then had up to 10, 20, or even 30 years away from bikes.

[Mr. Dazzle]

All of those things rely on the student following a set of instructions from you and then seeing for themselves what actually happens. That's my point really - you can tell someone what to do until the cows come home, but they need to actually do it to learn.

The connection between theoretical understanding and physical action doesn't happen in the classroom does it? That's the bit you need practice for and which is the bit you're fighting when you try and ride something different.

[Horse]

All of those things rely on the student following a set of instructions from you and then seeing for themselves what actually happens. That's my point really - you can tell someone what to do until the cows come home, but they need to actually do it to learn.

The connection between theoretical understanding and physical action doesn't happen in the classroom does it? That's the bit you need practice for and which is the bit you're fighting when you try and ride something different.

See point '3', you said we couldn't teach it

But, yes, it's only part of a process. The on-bike practice allows 'feel' to be developed. Don't forget that there are some things that are very difficult to train in the 'real world', so simulators are growing in use - pilots being one example.

There are many ways this 'away from the action' can be done, with varying degrees of success:talking, books, by rote action, video, visualisation, etc.

[Mr. Dazzle]

The on-bike practice allows 'feel' to be developed.

That's precisely the point I started with - "feel" is basically impossible to teach. You can expose people to situations which require them to develop it (e.g. throw them in the deep end so they have to swim, or give them exercises etc.) but you can't teach feel, you have to see for yourself.

With regards to riding a bike all of us, almost without exception, would have learned the feel first. We learned how to balance on a bike when we were toddlers, decades before we were even capable of understanding how or why we do the things necessary for that. It's the same with learning what it feels like when the brakes are about to lock or the rear about to slide, doubly so for racers who've been doing it since a very young age.

That's why alternative suspensions, which feel different, never catch on IMO.

[Horse]

The on-bike practice allows 'feel' to be developed.

That's precisely the point I started with - "feel" is basically impossible to teach. You can expose people to situations which require them to develop it (e.g. throw them in the deep end so they have to swim, or give them exercises etc.) but you can't teach feel, you have to see for yourself.

Actually, after posting that, I realised that there was actually another very good (and important) reason for the born agains having physical practice: however much we told them ('teaching") they often didn't believe it. So that proof ('learning') was achieved with on-bike exercises.

With regards to riding a bike all of us, almost without exception, would have learned the feel first. We learned how to balance on a bike when we were toddlers

Years ago, I read where someone said that the dirtiest, nasty, trick that parents could play on their kids is to buy them a little bicycle but bolt on a set of training wheels - then, when kiddie has the hang of the pedals, unbolt the training wheels. With the training wheels, usually three wheels on the ground, it direct steers. Unbolt the little wheels and suddenly it countersteers.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I have no idea if it's significant to this or not, but baby D (3) doesn't have stabilisers and probably never will. At the moment she's got a little 'balance bike' which doesn't have pedals so that she can learn how to well....balance. She's proper quick on that thing now though and loves rolling down hills fast enough that I have to run to keep up, so we're just gonna get her a pedal bike with no stabilisers in a few month's time.

The balance bike is dead nifty though, it's got very limited steering travel and several times now I've seen her get into a massive tank slapper rolling down a hill - but she saves it!

[Horse]

Balance bike, straight to bicycle, is the best route.

Would be interesting to know what causes the instability and whether it sorts itself out because of BD's help or despite it

[The Spin Doctor]

You can explain the physics, but I bet you a million quid you can't teach sometime to ride a bike in a classroom. I don't even have a million quid to bet you, that's how confident I am.

Nor usually, when I was a CBT trainer I would do it outside in the open air.

I would tell them the theory, explain the practical steps they need to carry out the task, and usually demonstrate.

Then they would go and do it.

I don't simply say "there's a bike, go ride it... until you fall off, then pick it up and have another go". That's how I learned. It's quicker, cheaper and less painful listening to someone who knows how to deliver what you want to learn.

But I've also delivered those first two of those elements in a classroom whilst its been blowing a gale or lashing down with rain outside.

Or I've taught over the internet. I've taught all sorts of practical techniques over the internet including counter-steering. I regularly diagnose riding issues, suggest a remedy and hear a few days later "that was it, exactly. I did what you said and it worked".

Do you want the sort code?

[The Spin Doctor]

With regards to riding a bike all of us, almost without exception, would have learned the feel first. We learned how to balance on a bike when we were toddlers

You'd probably be amazed at the number of 16/17 year olds who turn up for CBT having never ridden a bicycle.

With one exception I've taught them all to ride.

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

I taught both my children to ride bicycles by telling them what to do (pedal) putting them on a bike, giving them a good shove and off they went, neither of them fell off, both got how to balance straight away, it's pretty easy if you go fast enough.

[Mr. Dazzle]

it's pretty easy if you go fast enough.

Words to live by.

I didnt really tell baby D anything. She just climbed on and "scooted" and away she went. She still figured it out.

I don't even know what I'd tell her to be fair. Didn't seem to stop her!