Mussels wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:13 pm
I think it's simpler than that, cooked numbers.
Nine small family firms and McDonald's, very easy to say the only firm that employs Europeans is the only firm with formal training plans.
That's an interesting analysis. I wonder why the CIPD would want to skew the stats like that? Any thoughts?
I was on my phone earlier and missed the link. It's a long document and looks like it isn't trying to hide anything* but I can't find any information in there that links employers of EU nationals and training programmes.
* It even explains how it applied weighting to the results which is a refreshing bit of openess these days.
I don't think they give raw data but the section I was looking at Section 6? gave the analysis. I did look to see if the actual questionnaire was on-line. I'm also getting a bit confused now 'cos I've been looking at 3 reports inc. the 2019 one. There's not really anything v controversial and it's all pretty much reporting things straight, as it were.
I just found it interesting to see something a bit more in depth on the response to employment issues inc. those Brexit related. They cover salary, recruitment etc inc stuff about replacing EU staff with migrant labour from elsewhere.
Something for everyone in a Brexit debate.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Voltaire
Count Steer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:26 pm
That's an interesting analysis. I wonder why the CIPD would want to skew the stats like that? Any thoughts?
They may not skew stats on purpose, not everything is political, they do it because they don't know what they don't know - not particularly or especially the one you mentioned, but any of these consultancy pieces. They gather information and then make statements which may or may not be accurate, or may have different angles than the one they're selling.
I don’t see the CIPD cooking the numbers because it surveyed 1,018 businesses of different sizes and from different sectors.
These businesses included all manner of company sizes. Additionally, the CIPD survey comprised private sector businesses, public sector employers and voluntary sector employers.
The CIPD is a professional body, not a consultancy, and I fail to see any skewing.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:50 pm
When was the last time you met a young person who got a job as an apprentice HGV driver?
Has such a thing ever existed? It's not something that's ever struck me as needing an apprenticeship.
Such apprenticeships ae rare. What the industry seems to expect is that people shell out for their own training and test. Which is a major part of the reason HGV (or LGV if you want to be pedantic) drivers are mostly an aging population.
Pirahna wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:20 pm
Has such a thing ever existed? It's not something that's ever struck me as needing an apprenticeship.
Such apprenticeships ae rare. What the industry seems to expect is that people shell out for their own training and test. Which is a major part of the reason HGV (or LGV if you want to be pedantic) drivers are mostly an aging population.
Has such a thing ever existed? It's not something that's ever struck me as needing an apprenticeship.
Such apprenticeships ae rare. What the industry seems to expect is that people shell out for their own training and test. Which is a major part of the reason HGV (or LGV if you want to be pedantic) drivers are mostly an aging population.
Article wrote:UK needs 100,000 HGV drivers due to combination of Brexit and Covid
Didn't we need 60,000 or so before both Brexit and Covid?
Article wrote: after Brexit forced thousands of European drivers to leave the country
Weren't the European drivers included in the 5 million who've received settled status?
All those things can be true though which I think lots of people are missing, we already had a shortage and then some went back to Europe because of Covid and Brexit, some retired and Covid inteferred with the training and licencing.
JamJar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:58 am
All those things can be true though which I think lots of people are missing, we already had a shortage and then some went back to Europe because of Covid and Brexit, some retired and Covid inteferred with the training and licencing.
Are they though?
Were ANY European HGV drivers FORCED TO LEAVE the country because of Brexit?
JamJar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:58 am
All those things can be true though which I think lots of people are missing, we already had a shortage and then some went back to Europe because of Covid and Brexit, some retired and Covid inteferred with the training and licencing.
Are they though?
Were ANY European HGV drivers FORCED TO LEAVE the country because of Brexit?
Who can say? Anecdotally we know that EU nationals felt unwelcome and left we have also heard reports of EU drivers going home during Covid and not being allowed back until these new emergency visas. To think Brexit hasn't had an impact is as stupid as thinking that it is all down to Brexit.
JamJar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:58 am
All those things can be true though which I think lots of people are missing, we already had a shortage and then some went back to Europe because of Covid and Brexit, some retired and Covid inteferred with the training and licencing.
Are they though?
Were ANY European HGV drivers FORCED TO LEAVE the country because of Brexit?
Who can say? Anecdotally we know that EU nationals felt unwelcome and left we have also heard reports of EU drivers going home during Covid and not being allowed back until these new emergency visas. To think Brexit hasn't had an impact is as stupid as thinking that it is all down to Brexit.
Our latest data, using information from the Annual Population Survey (APS), shows that in mid-2020 there were about 3.5 million EU citizens living in the UK, a lot smaller than the 6m applications for the EU Settlement Scheme,” said Jay Lindop, deputy director of the ONS Centre for International Migration in a post on ...5 Jul 2021
Don't worry, the Guardianista will reconcile the numbers.
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
It was very irresponsible of the government to spring this Brexit thing on employers with only a couple of weeks notice. Surely it would have been fairer to give them, oh, say, five years notice so they could have made plans.
Saga Lout wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:28 pm
It was very irresponsible of the government to spring this Brexit thing on employers with only a couple of weeks notice. Surely it would have been fairer to give them, oh, say, five years notice so they could have made plans.
To be fair, nobody knew what to plan for. Business had 5 years notice something would happen and about 2 weeks to digest the oven ready deal and work around it.
Yep, it was absolutely totally unforeseeable that following the vote to leave that the nigh-on unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour (other than those in the 3/5/6m who were and are still able to work in the UK) would come to an end.
JamJar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:21 pm
Who can say? Anecdotally we know that EU nationals felt unwelcome and left we have also heard reports of EU drivers going home during Covid and not being allowed back until these new emergency visas. To think Brexit hasn't had an impact is as stupid as thinking that it is all down to Brexit.
The problem is though it can't be discussed by those inflicted with a bad case of dogma.
Apparently Brexit = a tory problem.
So anyone that normally trots out bollocks against the conservative party is compelled to trot out non-stop shite against Brexit even though, as you rightly say it's certainly not all down to Brexit.
Most, if not all, of these problems were coming home to roost regardless of Brexit, but for some people they're only capable of dogma and moany moany.
Kneerly Down wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:18 am
Yep, it was absolutely totally unforeseeable that following the vote to leave that the nigh-on unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour (other than those in the 3/5/6m who were and are still able to work in the UK) would come to an end.
I think it was only foreseeable to those who voted for Brexit because that's what they wanted, and those who voted Remain because that's what they warned about.
Neither side did anything about it.
Kneerly Down wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:18 am
Yep, it was absolutely totally unforeseeable that following the vote to leave that the nigh-on unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour (other than those in the 3/5/6m who were and are still able to work in the UK) would come to an end.
Is labour supply a function of employers or gov't?
Where do you you recruit from if your source has been cut off? Why is a Conservative govt lauding a high-wage economy, having got tired hands from clapping the low paid frontline heroes of COVID?
Saga Lout wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:28 pm
It was very irresponsible of the government to spring this Brexit thing on employers with only a couple of weeks notice. Surely it would have been fairer to give them, oh, say, five years notice so they could have made plans.
Fact is that pretty much all businesses and a large number of politicians tried to prevent Brexit, or at least water it down to the point of being pointless. Buried their heads in the sand and now getting their arses kicked. Those pesky voters, who'd want them, eh?
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." - Giordano Bruno
