cheb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:53 am
.........Why would anyone be uncomfortable with it, IMO if just a person in some clothes. Maybe the discomforteds need to look at their own thought processes. What's the difference between mens' and womens' clothing anyway? Skirt/kilt/sarong, blouse/shirt, what real difference is there?
Because (presumably) he/she changes his/her persona to some extent, so you are dealing with a different person. If the persona doesn't change then he/she are just taking the piss.
I don't know about you, but I do treat women slightly differently to men in many situations. Not in a sexist way, but a respectful way. Most seem to prefer it like that.
cheb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:53 am
.........Why would anyone be uncomfortable with it, IMO if just a person in some clothes. Maybe the discomforteds need to look at their own thought processes. What's the difference between mens' and womens' clothing anyway? Skirt/kilt/sarong, blouse/shirt, what real difference is there?
Because (presumably) he/she changes his/her persona to some extent, so you are dealing with a different person. If the persona doesn't change then he/she are just taking the piss.
I don't know about you, but I do treat women slightly differently to men in many situations. Not in a sexist way, but a respectful way. Most seem to prefer it like that.
Because nothing that happens at that level of business is by accident, the way people dress, act , co-operate etc are all very carefully thought out (and in some case it is rehearsed).
My old French boss was always late for meetings - initially I thought it was just disorganisation - but it didn't take longe to realise that it was all about making him more important than everyone else.
The guy/ gal above is applying the same metrics and trying to put people on the back foot.
Not much difference then, to me anyway, as dress down Fridays. Something I only know about as a concept as I've been lucky enough to avoid office work for a long time.
Doesn't everyone change their persona depending on who they're interacting with?
Mr Moofo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because nothing that happens at that level of business is by accident, the way people dress, act , co-operate etc are all very carefully thought out (and in some case it is rehearsed).
My old French boss was always late for meetings - initially I thought it was just disorganisation - but it didn't take longe to realise that it was all about making him more important than everyone else.
The guy/ gal above is applying the same metrics and trying to put people on the back foot.
I think that Machiavellian stuff is a bit out of date.
We had a business coach that tried to make me dress up like an 80s Dallas star and said that people wouldn’t take me seriously otherwise. I ignored them.
I have no issue with the person who chooses to dress in different ways. I think anyone that does is hampered by their conditioning.
Mr Moofo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because nothing that happens at that level of business is by accident, the way people dress, act , co-operate etc are all very carefully thought out (and in some case it is rehearsed).
My old French boss was always late for meetings - initially I thought it was just disorganisation - but it didn't take longe to realise that it was all about making him more important than everyone else.
The guy/ gal above is applying the same metrics and trying to put people on the back foot.
I think that Machiavellian stuff is a bit out of date.
We had a business coach that tried to make me dress up like an 80s Dallas star and said that people wouldn’t take me seriously otherwise. I ignored them.
I have no issue with the person who chooses to dress in different ways. I think anyone that does is hampered by their conditioning.
I think you are being naïve. You may have managed to get away with dressing how you wished, many other people have found that someone in their orbit, perhaps not their boss, decided they were dressing like a tosser and deserved to be treated like one. Often they will never know who shafted them, or why.
In busines dress I always tried to stand out from the crowd, but in a good way. Bright colours in shirt, tie or even socks, but if suited and booted was the code I was suited and booted.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:17 pm
I think you are being naïve. You may have managed to get away with dressing how you wished, many other people have found that someone in their orbit, perhaps not their boss, decided they were dressing like a tosser and deserved to be treated like one. Often they will never know who shafted them, or why.
In busines dress I always tried to stand out from the crowd, but in a good way. Bright colours in shirt, tie or even socks, but if suited and booted was the code I was suited and booted.
I don't think it matters so much any more mate, my boss jokes that I dress like a farmer, it doesn't seem to be holding me back.
Most of the people I sit across the table from with six or seven zeroes in their bank account are usually in jeans and t-shirt.
It does matter to some people, but I think it's a lot less than it did.
And gender or whatever you want to call yourself matters less as well, I couldn't give a monkeys, if you have a preference in how I address you then let me know and after that I'm only interested in whether you can hold your own in the conversation.
Potter wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:23 pm
I don't think it matters so much any more mate, my boss jokes that I dress like a farmer, it doesn't seem to be holding me back.
Most of the people I sit across the table from with six or seven zeroes in their bank account are usually in jeans and t-shirt.
It does matter to some people, but I think it's a lot less than it did.
And gender or whatever you want to call yourself matters less as well, I couldn't give a monkeys, if you have a preference in how I address you then let me know and after that I'm only interested in whether you can hold your own in the conversation.
You are right that it matters much less than it did, in my early days it mattered a great deal. Today, as you say, many people don't care, but some still do, and usually those that do are either senior or retired. If they are retired it really doesn't matter, but if they are senior and not quite retired yet............... Upsetting senior managers is not good for career prospects, and very few other managers will actually ask WHY that senior manager dislikes someone.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:45 pm
Upsetting senior managers is not good for career prospects, and very few other managers will actually ask WHY that senior manager dislikes someone.
We're off on a tangent now, but I've seen some old dinosaurs get spectacularly dethroned for outdated and oppressive ideas.
You just can't get away with it these days, there are some very clever and more open-minded younger people who will drag you kicking and screaming into the light and you'll burn.
Times change, 'the correct uniform' for business ebbs and flows with time and industry.
My granddad was never without a suit and tie, and he worked in a shipyard as a fitter most of his life. They even wore their best stuff to the beach.
My dad (now late 80s) fairly similar for business attire as a salesman, even now he seems to find it hard to wear anything but a suit. 'Informal' is a blazer ffs.
Less said about me, because I'm a scruffy bastard. WFH is a godsend for IT cavemen.
However my two sons, 20s, working in offices in fairly trendy industries would have the piss ripped right out of them if they turned up in suits, ties and dress shoes, let alone trying to one-up the next guy by showing off.
You have to fit in - dressing 'up' out of sync with everyone else is almost as bad as dressing down out of sync with everyone else. Mainly you need to avoid being weird. But of course it is subjective - everybody thinks they're normal after all.
Last edited by DefTrap on Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:11 pm
And yet some senior figures are still trying to get everyone back into the office, even if they have been succesfully working from home for 2 years.
That's something different, I still think that highly capable teams work better if they're physically together, plus there is a social side of work where you have a laugh at break times, etc. I encourage flexi time and remote working, if it works, but I also think there is something to be said for a busy office where everyone is on top of their game and firing off each other.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:11 pm
And yet some senior figures are still trying to get everyone back into the office, even if they have been succesfully working from home for 2 years.
*Three* years!
FWIW we WfH unless either there is a business requirement or someone actually wants to be in the office. To the extent that smaller premises are being considered.
Yes, working in an office can sometime be more fun, it can sometimes be more productive, but usually it is just an expensive PITA. Especially if your office is in the centre of the Great Wen, so it costs a fortune, and your travel to and fro eats a huge chunk of your time and money.
Even in pre-internet days I sometimes used to work from home effectively.
Mr Moofo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because nothing that happens at that level of business is by accident, the way people dress, act , co-operate etc are all very carefully thought out (and in some case it is rehearsed).
My old French boss was always late for meetings - initially I thought it was just disorganisation - but it didn't take longe to realise that it was all about making him more important than everyone else.
The guy/ gal above is applying the same metrics and trying to put people on the back foot.
I think that Machiavellian stuff is a bit out of date.
We had a business coach that tried to make me dress up like an 80s Dallas star and said that people wouldn’t take me seriously otherwise. I ignored them.
I have no issue with the person who chooses to dress in different ways. I think anyone that does is hampered by their conditioning.
I don't think it has changed one iota for American/ Swiss lead companies - looks, presentation , body shape where all hugely important to how you were seen and how you "fitted" the company.
It wasn't as pronounced in Germany - where egos were worn much more brazenly and there was little Machiavellian posturing to it. It was more directly cocks out on the table.
the Japanese were a little different - however, if you weren't Japanese you didn't really matter.
But even in a world run by Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos , how you dress will matter.
Cousin Jack wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:09 pm
Yes, working in an office can sometime be more fun, it can sometimes be more productive, but usually it is just an expensive PITA. Especially if your office is in the centre of the Great Wen, so it costs a fortune, and your travel to and fro eats a huge chunk of your time and money.
Even in pre-internet days I sometimes used to work from home effectively.
In my last workplace it was more a case of who you had for a head of department. Stuff like how many days per week (or even if) you were allowed to WFH was at 'manager's discretion'. My head of department was resolutely old-skool in his attitudes, despite being over 20 years younger than me, and if he could have forced everyone to work in the office all the time he would have done. As it was he grudgingly allowed people to WFH for 2 days a week.
But times change - a year or so pre-Covid he headed off to Danske Bank and things loosened up noticeably. Then Covid hit and totally changed the landscape.
Mr Moofo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because nothing that happens at that level of business is by accident, the way people dress, act , co-operate etc are all very carefully thought out (and in some case it is rehearsed).
My old French boss was always late for meetings - initially I thought it was just disorganisation - but it didn't take longe to realise that it was all about making him more important than everyone else.
The guy/ gal above is applying the same metrics and trying to put people on the back foot.
I think that Machiavellian stuff is a bit out of date.
We had a business coach that tried to make me dress up like an 80s Dallas star and said that people wouldn’t take me seriously otherwise. I ignored them.
I have no issue with the person who chooses to dress in different ways. I think anyone that does is hampered by their conditioning.
I don't think it has changed one iota for American/ Swiss lead companies - looks, presentation , body shape where all hugely important to how you were seen and how you "fitted" the company.
It wasn't as pronounced in Germany - where egos were worn much more brazenly and there was little Machiavellian posturing to it. It was more directly cocks out on the table.
the Japanese were a little different - however, if you weren't Japanese you didn't really matter.
But even in a world run by Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos , how you dress will matter.
Every national culture is different, as I discovered working as a Project Manager across multiple countries. German or American - make sure he really understand what he has to deliver, and by when, and then leave him to it. If it looks like he will miss the deadline he will call you. French - you had better call him twice a week or he will assume you have lost interest and put it all on the back burner. When you remonstrate you will get a gallic shrug.
