Who Will You Vote For?

[Pirahna]

This is a long time after Thatcher and its ridiculous to try and blame her for todays problems.

Thatcher seems to be regarded as a god among Conservatives, it's her privatisation policies that you still live with today. Tories won't do anything to change her legacy, so absolutely no blame on her 40 years later.

Did she envisage the profit at any cost, greed above everything world of today, who knows.

[Count Steer]

Go on, with a straight face, tell us that privately owned water companies are working well.

Just read this...

'The current system of private monopolies dates back to 1989 when Conservative prime minister Margaret Thatcher sold off the publicly-owned water and sewage industry in England and Wales for £7.6bn. She vowed it would lead to a new era of investment, improve water quality and help bring down bills'.

Most other sell-offs were about competition and choice but water was rather different. It would have been better if they'd only been sold as publicly quoted companies (Now it looks like Royal Mail is going to be hived off as a privately owned cash generator too. ).

The whole concept of private monopolies seems a bit bizarre from either side of the political spectrum. (So selling off the gas and electricity transmission networks , given the strategic nature of them seems a bit dim too).

[DefTrap]

It'll probably be Labours fault for not immediately fixing 15 years of austerity and shit Brexit.

[Saga Lout]

Go on, with a straight face, tell us that privately owned water companies are working well.

The sub text is: the private company is shit therefore it should be nationalised. Nationalised industries were/are shit so changing it from a shit privately owned company to a shit government owned company is a shit idea. It's as if people have forgotten how bad nationalised companies were.Do we really want to repeat the same mistakes of previous generations? Or are we stupid enough to think we're much smarter than they were and it'll work this time?

[irie]

Go on, with a straight face, tell us that privately owned water companies are working well.

The sub text is: the private company is shit therefore it should be nationalised. Nationalised industries were/are shit so changing it from a shit privately owned company to a shit government owned company is a shit idea. It's as if people have forgotten how bad nationalised companies were.Do we really want to repeat the same mistakes of previous generations? Or are we stupid enough to think we're much smarter than they were and it'll work this time?

There are generations who have either forgotten how shit nationalised industries were, or look at the past through rose tinted glasses, or are too young to have experienced them. Give it time.

[mangocrazy]

Go on, with a straight face, tell us that privately owned water companies are working well.

The sub text is: the private company is shit therefore it should be nationalised. Nationalised industries were/are shit so changing it from a shit privately owned company to a shit government owned company is a shit idea. It's as if people have forgotten how bad nationalised companies were.Do we really want to repeat the same mistakes of previous generations? Or are we stupid enough to think we're much smarter than they were and it'll work this time?

There are generations who have either forgotten how shit nationalised industries were, or look at the past through rose tinted glasses, or are too young to have experienced them. Give it time.

There are also generations that can clearly remember when water was a national asset, not the privatised mess it is now. Raw sewage wasn't released into waterways under public ownership, certain parts of the water grid didn't mysteriously go broke and prices for consumers were much, much lower than they are now. My memory of publicly-owned water companies were that they just worked. They certainly weren't allowed to pay chief execs football style salaries, nor did they pay shareholders fat dividends. Water privatisation, as so many of the others, were simply a con to make a few people very rich at the expense of the poor huddled masses, and when anyone points this out we get the inevitable 'things were so much worse when xxx service was in public hands'.

It's bollocks. When services were in public hands, yes there was inefficiency - there always is in any large organisation - it's endemic. But it's nothing like the profligacy and corruption you see when the same services are privately owned and run.

[Yambo]

It's my recollection of when water was under public ownership that hardly any money was put into improving the infrastructure or building more reservoirs. That is simply down to bad management.

[mangocrazy]

I worked as an IT contractor for Severn Trent Water from May 1989 to December 1994. STW was privatised (along with all the other Water utilities) in July 1989. In my time there I saw massive spending on IT infrastructure (the IBM salesman must have been able to retire on his commission from that particular sale) and acquisition of buildings and other companies (Biffa being the most high profile), but heard little to nothing on their plans to upgrade the network of Victorian pipework supplying their customers. 35 years later, most of the pipes in the ground still date from Victorian times.

[Count Steer]

It's my recollection of when water was under public ownership that hardly any money was put into improving the infrastructure or building more reservoirs. That is simply down to bad management.

It's my recollection that one of the first things put up for sale when the water companies were sold was - reservoirs and the land around them.

'People also ask
Have water companies sold off reservoirs?
In the 35 years since, just one potable water reservoir has been completed – Carsington Reservoir in Derbyshire, in 1992. In fact, in recent years, water companies have even been selling off reservoirs'.

That's simply down to profiteering.

[Count Steer]

I worked as an IT contractor for Severn Trent Water from May 1989 to December 1994. STW was privatised (along with all the other Water utilities) in July 1989. In my time there I saw massive spending on IT infrastructure (the IBM salesman must have been able to retire on his commission from that particular sale) and acquisition of buildings and other companies (Biffa being the most high profile), but heard little to nothing on their plans to upgrade the network of Victorian pipework supplying their customers. 35 years later, most of the pipes in the ground still date from Victorian times.

I've been 'indoors' with a few since the sell off (Dwr Cymru, Bristol, Anglian and South Staffs). Dwr Cymru seemed more interested in getting into gas and electric and developing a consultancy/outsourcing business and South Staffs in setting up an insurance/maintenance business (Homeserve) and selling off their billing system and staff (Rapid).

(Anglian and Bristol seemed happy selling water).

PS I was at STW....for 2 days.

[mangocrazy]

In the 35 years since, just one potable water reservoir has been completed – Carsington Reservoir in Derbyshire, in 1992.

And that would have been instigated when water was still publicly owned.

[Horse]

It's my recollection of when water was under public ownership that hardly any money was put into improving the infrastructure or building more reservoirs.

Your memory is correct.

Wikipedia explains:

Margaret Thatcher's Conservative government, which had been elected in 1979, had curtailed the RWAs' ability to borrow money they deemed necessary for capital projects.[8][9][11] Daniel Okun said: "Before, they could borrow money everywhere easily. They could get money at very good rates. Restrictions on external borrowing prevented the [RWAs] from getting capital. They were considered ineffective because they could not borrow money. Thatcher prevented them from borrowing and then blamed them for not building."[9] When the European Union introduced stricter legislation on river, bathing, coastal, and drinking water quality, the sector was in no position to meet the expenditure requirements and the UK was prosecuted for noncompliance.[12][b

That is simply down to bad management.

So bad management by the government?

[Cousin Jack]

Nationalised industries were crap, private monopolies are crap. Time for a new business model?

How about publicly owned private companies? I should be possible to deliver sensible management, insulated from dead hand of the Treasury, making modest profits that come back to the public purse.

[Horse]

Go on, with a straight face, tell us that privately owned water companies are working well.

The sub text is: the private company is shit therefore it should be nationalised.

No, it wasn't. You've taken one section of a series which related to a quote from Margaret Thatcher, about socialists spending others' money.

[Mussels]

This says cost and investment have gone up since privatisation, but I have no idea if this means we got better or worse value for money.
https://fullfact.org/economy/water-bills-privatisation/

Ofwat argues that privatisation has allowed significant, and more efficient investment in improving services. It recognises that services have broadly increased in quality since privatisation, but other research suggests that water companies could do more to deliver value for customers, and have prioritised increased dividends for shareholders over providing better value.

[Yambo]

So bad management by the government?

Yes

If the owners of the company don't exercise proper control and appoint good management then they are bad managers.

The Post Office is owned by the government, it's hardly been an example of good management. Although the government don't have hands on control (which would probably also be a disaster) they have managed to allow shit managers instead.

[Count Steer]

Nationalised industries were crap, private monopolies are crap. Time for a new business model?

How about publicly owned private companies? I should be possible to deliver sensible management, insulated from dead hand of the Treasury, making modest profits that come back to the public purse.

I always thought that the original BP arrangement was reasonable - government retained, iirc, a 30% share, so had a big say in things but could be hands off and bank all those share dividends. (They sold the 30% in pretty short order* which seemed rather short term thinking to me).

Just to go back to water briefly. Pre-sell off they were non-profit (any profit went in to government coffers) so they were effectively encouraged to spend annually but couldn't build up the big £££s for major infrastructure projects (and, as mentioned above, couldn't borrow).

Similarly, people forget - or don't know - that the likes of Royal Mail contributed large amounts to the government over quite a long period.

It's just that governments think short term and are crap at managing stuff + they saw the immediate income from the sell offs but actually botched most of the privatisations and lost the direct income. Same with the North Sea. They made a lot but could have made much more over time with a better model.

* and the Kuwaitis promptly bought a controlling share% of BP (and had to be told to divest).

[Cousin Jack]

Royal Mail, back in the day, was a cash business with modest investment needed. As soon as a business needed major investment ( eg the PO Telephones) the Treasury starved them, and service became crap. Management can only go so far, no money for investment and even the best managers will fail.

[Yambo]

Royal Mail, back in the day, was a cash business with modest investment needed. As soon as a business needed major investment ( eg the PO Telephones) the Treasury starved them, and service became crap. Management can only go so far, no money for investment and even the best managers will fail.

As we are saying, the government are shit at managing public owned businesses. The owners cut funding when it was needed - simply more bad management.

[Mussels]

The SNP are demonstrating they don't want to win, even without the Green shackles he is still siding with the group that want to behead feminists.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fo ... r-BB1oeHze

Former SNP equalities officer who wanted to ‘beat up terfs’ convicted of sexual assault