Would you have an electric car if you had the money for a new car and were in the market for one?

[Saga Lout]

"World on brink of climate breakthrough as fossil fuels ‘run out of road’, UN chief says" https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ssil-fuels

"The world is on the brink of a breakthrough in the climate fight and fossil fuels are running out of road, the UN chief said on Tuesday, as he urged countries to funnel support into low-carbon energy.

"More than nine in 10 renewable power projects globally are now cheaper than fossil fuel alternatives. Solar power is about 41% cheaper than the lowest-cost fossil fuel alternative, and onshore wind generation is less than half the price of fossil fuels, according to a report from the International Renewable Energy Agency."

Well, that is good news. I guess we'll stop all the subsidies, no more contracts for difference and every old power station will be replaced by renewables when it comes to end of life. Job done.

"Costs have been driven down by the increasingly widespread use of the technologies, a huge focus on low-carbon manufacturing in China..."

Hang on, low-carbon manufacturing in China? He's having a laugh, isn't he?

[Mr. Dazzle]

What subsidies do renewables get?

[Saga Lout]

What subsidies do renewables get?

I asked ChatGPT What subsidies do wind and solar receive in the UK? The answer is pretty long so I won't post all of it. You can ask the same question if you want the details.

"In a Nutshell

Wind developers rely mainly on Contracts for Difference, with updated strike prices and longer contracts to ensure investment security.

Small-scale solar support is largely targeted: ECO4 and Warm Homes Plan provide full funding to eligible households, while all homeowners benefit from:

SEG for export earnings,
0% VAT to reduce upfront costs,
Regional support where available.
For households still on Feed-In Tariff, switching to SEG can markedly improve earnings (e.g. from ~5p/kWh FiT to ~15–30p/kWh SEG)"

[Mr. Dazzle]

OK so you can't find any subsidies then?

[Horse]

ChatGPT

What subsidies do the UK coal, gas, and nuclear power industries receive?

ChatGPT said:

The UK energy sector, including coal, gas, and nuclear power, has historically received various forms of subsidies and support. However, the landscape has been evolving, especially with the transition to a greener energy grid. Below is an outline of the subsidies and financial support these industries have received:

1. Coal Industry Subsidies
Coal power has historically been heavily subsidized, though these subsidies have been significantly reduced in recent years, especially as the UK moves toward decarbonizing its energy sector.

Carbon Price Support (CPS): Coal-fired power plants received indirect subsidies through the UK’s Carbon Price Support mechanism. CPS increased the cost of emitting CO2, making coal less competitive against natural gas. Although it wasn't a direct subsidy, this pricing structure did affect the profitability of coal plants and was part of the broader market support for energy producers. With the UK’s push for decarbonization, these mechanisms are being phased out.

Energy Market Reform (EMR): Historically, coal was also supported through various market reforms like the Capacity Market, which helped ensure the availability of power generation (including coal). These mechanisms are increasingly being reformed to support low-carbon technologies instead.

Closure of Coal Plants: Most subsidies and support for coal plants have been phased out as the UK commits to closing coal-fired power stations by 2024. In 2020, coal contributed only about 2% of the UK’s electricity generation, and the UK government has pledged to phase out coal entirely by 2024 as part of its commitment to net zero emissions.

2. Gas Industry Subsidies
Natural gas, while considered cleaner than coal, still receives certain subsidies and incentives.

Carbon Price Floor (CPF): The UK government has set a carbon price floor to ensure that the price of carbon remains high enough to incentivize cleaner energy generation. This supports natural gas plants, as they tend to emit less carbon than coal but more than renewable energy. While not a direct subsidy, it indirectly supports the gas industry.

Capacity Mechanism: Gas plants have benefitted from the UK's Capacity Mechanism, which pays electricity generators (including gas plants) for being available to produce electricity when demand is high. This ensures grid stability, particularly when renewable sources like wind and solar aren’t producing.

Renewable Obligation Certificates (ROCs) and Contracts for Difference (CFD): While these schemes are primarily aimed at supporting renewable energy, some older gas plants may have received support through these mechanisms.

Gas Storage and Infrastructure: Gas-fired power plants are often supported indirectly by investments in gas storage, pipelines, and other infrastructure. For example, the UK government has funded projects like the Barrow Gas Storage Facility to ensure a reliable gas supply, benefiting gas-fired power generation.

3. Nuclear Industry Subsidies
The UK has long supported nuclear energy, though the nature of the support has evolved.

Contracts for Difference (CfD): Nuclear power plants in the UK, particularly the Hinkley Point C project, have received financial support through CfDs. These are long-term contracts that guarantee a fixed price for electricity produced by nuclear plants, offering a stable revenue stream for investors. The agreement for Hinkley Point C, for example, ensures a price of £92.50/MWh (2012 prices) for the next 35 years.

Decommissioning Liabilities: The UK government has provided support in the form of managing decommissioning costs for nuclear plants, which are very high due to the complexity of safely closing reactors. The government established a fund to cover these costs, effectively subsidizing the decommissioning of older reactors.

Government Loans and Equity: In some instances, the UK government has provided loans or equity stakes in nuclear projects. For example, the government is considering taking an equity stake in the Sizewell C nuclear project to ensure its financial viability.

Nuclear Fuel Cycle: The UK has a policy of supporting the nuclear fuel cycle, which includes uranium mining, enrichment, and fuel processing. Government support for research and development in this field helps lower the cost of nuclear power generation.

Summary of Support:
Coal: Historically received subsidies through carbon pricing mechanisms and energy market reforms but is phasing out due to decarbonization policies.

Gas: Receives indirect support through the Carbon Price Floor, the Capacity Mechanism, and gas infrastructure investments.

Nuclear: Receives substantial subsidies through Contracts for Difference, decommissioning funds, and potential government loans/equity in new projects.

[Saga Lout]

OK so you can't find any subsidies then?

I didn't want to post it all because it's pretty long, but if you insist...

"In the UK, wind and solar energy receive financial support through a range of subsidy mechanisms designed to boost low-carbon electricity generation, with different schemes available depending on scale and applicant type.

🌬 Wind Energy Subsidies
Contracts for Difference (CfD)

The Contracts for Difference (CfD) scheme is the UK’s main subsidy mechanism for renewable energy, including wind (onshore, fixed offshore, floating). Generators bid in annual reverse auctions, where winning bids receive a fixed “strike price.” This guarantees revenue stability: if the wholesale price falls below the strike price, the government pays the difference; if it rises above, generators repay the excess
UK Parliament Committees+2Wikipedia+2Reuters+2
.

New Auction Terms (2025):

Offshore wind: Administrative strike price raised to approx £113 / MWh.

Onshore wind: Admin strike price increased to approx £92 / MWh.

Floating offshore wind: Admin cap increased to £271 / MWh, though actual bids are usually lower
UK Parliament Committees+3Financial Times+3Reuters+3
.

Contracts now stretch to 20-year durations (up from previous 15 years).

The Clean Industry Bonus, introduced in late 2024, provides additional CfD support for offshore wind projects that build sustainable UK supply chains—worth about £27 million per GW for eligible projects in the upcoming Allocation Round 7 (AR7)
Financial Times
Wikipedia
.

Coverage and cost:

The CfD program paid around £2.4 billion in subsidies during calendar year 2024, and offshore wind under CfD still received over 50% of its revenue from subsidies
UK Parliament Committees
Wikipedia
.

Legacy Schemes

Renewables Obligation (RO):

Closed to new entrants since 2017, this older scheme rewarded generators with Renewable Obligation Certificates (ROCs) per unit of generation. It cost the industry ~£7.6 billion in 2023–24 and is set to rise to £8.5 billion by 2026–27
UK Parliament Committees
Wikipedia
.

Solar Energy Subsidies
1. Smart Export Guarantee (SEG)

Introduced in January 2020, SEG requires energy suppliers with over 150,000 domestic customers to offer tariffs for electricity exported by small-scale generators (solar up to 5 MW)
Wikipedia+1Get Solar Panel Quotes+1
.

Typical export rates in 2025:

Between £0.15–£0.25 per kWh exported.

Consumers can earn £80 to £170 per year, depending on system size and supplier
shephartri.com
solarpanelsfornewbuilds.co.uk+15Get Solar Panel Quotes+15Wikipedia+15
.

SEG replaces the older Feed‑in Tariff (FiT), which many households still hold — but FiT export rates are much lower (~5p/kWh), so switching to SEG can increase earnings significantly, e.g. from ~£108/year (FiT) to ~£276/year (SEG) for a 4.8 kW system exporting 50%
Homebuilding
.

2. Energy Company Obligation (ECO4)

ECO4 runs from July 2022 to March 2026, targeting households on specific means-tested benefits with EPC ratings D–G
Sustainable Energy Engineering Limited+6Wikipedia+6Alpha Tech Group+6
.

Offers 100% funding (up to ~£6,000) for solar PV installation—and other efficiency measures—for eligible recipients
WigTea+2GreenMatch.co.uk+2Sustainable Energy Engineering Limited+2
.

3. Warm Homes Plan / Home Upgrade Grant (HUG)

New scheme launched in April 2025, running through 2028, aimed at low-income, rental, and social-housing households across the UK
shephartri.com+2Heatable+2GreenMatch.co.uk+2
.

Offers funding up to £30,000 per household for major efficiency upgrades, including solar panel installations
Heatable
GreenMatch.co.uk
.

4. 0% VAT on Solar Systems

To reduce upfront cost, the government has imposed a 0% VAT rate on solar panels, batteries, inverters, and other approved energy-saving equipment (installed by MCS-certified installers).

Valid until 31 March 2027; saves around £1,500–£4,100 on a 4 kW system with battery storage
Wikipedia+11FMB+11Alpha Tech Group+11
Sustainable Energy Engineering Limited+2GreenMatch.co.uk+2WigTea+2
.

5. Regional Schemes

Scotland – Home Energy Scotland: Grants and interest-free loans up to £6,000 for solar and hybrid systems
GreenMatch.co.uk+4Get Solar Panel Quotes+4thescottishsun.co.uk+4
.

Wales – Nest Scheme: Covers solar installations (often with battery storage) fully for eligible households
Heatable+7shephartri.com+7WigTea+7
.

Northern Ireland – NISEP: Offers up to 30% off costs up to £2,500
shephartri.com
.

Summary Table
Technology Subsidy Mechanism Key Benefits
Onshore/offshore wind CfD (with admin strike price, Clean Industry Bonus) Revenue certainty, fixed contracts, supply‑chain bonus for offshore wind
Solar PV SEG (export tariffs) Earn £80–£170/year for exported energy
ECO4 Up to 100% (≈£6k) funding for low-income households
Warm Homes Plan / HUG Up to £30k grant for eligible vulnerable/rented households
0% VAT Immediate VAT savings on installers (until March 2027)
Regional schemes (e.g. Scotland, Wales) Additional grants or loans for eligible homeowners
In a Nutshell

Wind developers rely mainly on Contracts for Difference, with updated strike prices and longer contracts to ensure investment security.

Small-scale solar support is largely targeted: ECO4 and Warm Homes Plan provide full funding to eligible households, while all homeowners benefit from:

SEG for export earnings,

0% VAT to reduce upfront costs,

Regional support where available.

For households still on Feed-In Tariff, switching to SEG can markedly improve earnings (e.g. from ~5p/kWh FiT to ~15–30p/kWh SEG)

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yep, that's all correct.

How does it compare to subsidies fossil fuels receive?

[Mr. Dazzle]

ChatGPT stuff

And this doesn't even mention the fact that the government has to artificially cap the price of power due to the enormous price variability of fossil fuels.

[Saga Lout]

Yep, that's all correct.

How does it compare to subsidies fossil fuels receive?

I don't know. Why don't you ask somebody who might know? May I suggest ChatGPT? Worked for me.

[Horse]

Yep, that's all correct.

How does it compare to subsidies fossil fuels receive?

Chat GPT suggests:

Total Estimated Subsidy Breakdown (2000–2025)
Industry Total Subsidies (in GBP)
Coal £1 billion (2000–2015), reduced post-2015
Gas £3.5 billion (2000–2015)
Nuclear £22–23 billion (2000–2025)

Decommissioning costs for older nuclear plants like Sellafield are £100 billion (although this is not all government funding, the UK taxpayer will bear a significant portion of these costs).

[Mr. Dazzle]

I don't know.

Never seems to stop you bringing up subsidies as an argument against renewable power all the same.

[Saga Lout]

Chat GPT suggests:

Total Estimated Subsidy Breakdown (2000–2025)
Industry Total Subsidies (in GBP)
Coal £1 billion (2000–2015), reduced post-2015
Gas £3.5 billion (2000–2015)
Nuclear £22–23 billion (2000–2025)

Decommissioning costs for older nuclear plants like Sellafield are £100 billion (although this is not all government funding, the UK taxpayer will bear a significant portion of these costs).

What question did you ask? Is that the complete answer? My question to ChatGPT got a much longer answer and I told you what I asked so you could check it for yourself.

[ZRX61]

In California, solar & wind is about 4x the price of oil/nuclear per Kw/Hr

[Mr. Dazzle]

Not according to AI.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), wholesale electricity prices in California during April 2025 were at the lower end of their annual range 1. However, the EIA does not provide a direct breakdown of prices by generation source in its monthly update.

To get more granular data, the California Energy Commission (CEC) and GridInfo offer detailed insights into generation by source:

Generation Sources and Pricing Trends

While exact wholesale prices per generation source (e.g., solar, wind, natural gas) are not always publicly itemized, the following general trends apply:

Estimated Price Ranges (April 2025)

Natural Gas: $30–$70/MWh (often sets the marginal price)
Solar & Wind: $0–$20/MWh (low or negative during oversupply)
Hydro: $20–$40/MWh (seasonally dependent)
Imports: $40–$80/MWh (varies by region and time)

[Mr. Dazzle]

Or you could look at this document from the department of energy which is quite old now, it's probably pretty unlikely renewables have got MORE expensive since 2018.

https://www.energy.ca.gov/sites/default ... 19-005.pdf

So a figure of "4x" has shades of truth, but in the wrong direction.

[Horse]

Chat GPT suggests:

Total Estimated Subsidy Breakdown (2000–2025)
Industry Total Subsidies (in GBP)
Coal £1 billion (2000–2015), reduced post-2015
Gas £3.5 billion (2000–2015)
Nuclear £22–23 billion (2000–2025)

Decommissioning costs for older nuclear plants like Sellafield are £100 billion (although this is not all government funding, the UK taxpayer will bear a significant portion of these costs).

What question did you ask? Is that the complete answer? My question to ChatGPT got a much longer answer and I told you what I asked so you could check it for yourself.

Same question as in the previous [full] post, with the addition of a prompt to provide greater detail.

That said, if you're not content with this reply, try using Chat GOT

[ZRX61]

So a figure of "4x" has shades of truth, but in the wrong direction.

I go by the bill that arrives every month... Average Nuke power is $0.03/Kwh in the US, Solar where I live is $0.33/Kwh, so yes, I was incorrect with the 4x claim, it's actually 11x

Plus when there is a surplus of wind/solar, California has to PAY Nevada to take it

[Taipan]

Aussie man telling at as he sees it!

[Mr. Dazzle]

Australia and mining is an absolute comedy shit show of an industrial story Chap's correct, they've got huge deposits of various things which they've been digging up and selling for years.

Rather than also building up industries in parallel which actually use those products they just ship em off to China to be turned into the "value added" stuff.

Now that China absolutely dominates them in terms of making batteries, solar panels, copper wire etc. and essentially has them over a barrel they get pissy

Once again China played the smart long game while westerners cling to the past.

[Taipan]

Drove mine to the west end of London today. Silky smooth and comfortable journey. About 75 miles all in and about 22% battery use which costs a pittance, and I dont pay any CC or ULEZ to boot. This post is full of win!