Why is buying British seen as not a good thing ?

[mangocrazy]

I'm an equal-opportunity purchaser. Like skub, I buy on whether the item fits my requirements and pocket. If it's made in Britain then that's a bonus. I do wish that we as a nation actually made more stuff rather than importing everything, and would support efforts to on-shore (for instance) white goods production. When our current washing machine eventually gives up the ghost it will be replaced with an Ebac, 100% made in the UK and is repairable, recyclable and reusable. It even allows 'hot fill', something that has been eliminated on all other machines on the grounds of cost saving.

[Count Steer]

When our current washing machine eventually gives up the ghost it will be replaced with an Ebac, 100% made in the UK and is repairable, recyclable and reusable. It even allows 'hot fill', something that has been eliminated on all other machines on the grounds of cost saving.

That's what Ebac say. It's down to efficiency really.

"The reason is basic energy efficiency. When your appliance takes in water it will always be cold even if from the DHW pipes, so by the time the hot water finally gets to your appliance it will have enough/majority of the water it needs so in the case of combis it has fired up for nothing and the cold water stood in your pipes will be replaced by hot just for it to sit there and lose heat."

PS Dishwashers work better on cold fill because they rinse better (hot water initial rinse congeals stuff like egg and makes it harder to shift).

PPS Ebac's track record in business is pants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebac#:~:t ... 20machines.

[ZRX61]

I've always driven Ford cars,Escort's then Focus,I'm sure theyr'e British built.

If British made products were competitive,I'd buy British as with the cars I own,but sadly it's not an option.

Ford are an American company...

[Mr. Dazzle]

Yeah I thought the "cold water intake" thing was an efficiency thing too, but I could be imagining that.

I've always driven Ford cars,Escort's then Focus,I'm sure theyr'e British built.

If British made products were competitive,I'd buy British as with the cars I own,but sadly it's not an option.

Ford are an American company...

Focii weren't made here either They switched that (Halewood) plant over to making Jags IIRC. Spain and Germany for Focii, then some in Belgium too I think. I've had three "Focus" cars, one Spanish Ford and two Belgian Volvos.

[KungFooBob]

I thought the cold intake was so you could run a decent depth bath with the washer on.

[Bustaspoke]

I've always driven Ford cars,Escort's then Focus,I'm sure theyr'e British built.

If British made products were competitive,I'd buy British as with the cars I own,but sadly it's not an option.

Ford are an American company...

I know & they make them over here so it creates British jobs just like Vauxhall/ Chrysler do,also Nissan & Toyota are Japanese,they also make them over here ..

[mangocrazy]

When our current washing machine eventually gives up the ghost it will be replaced with an Ebac, 100% made in the UK and is repairable, recyclable and reusable. It even allows 'hot fill', something that has been eliminated on all other machines on the grounds of cost saving.

That's what Ebac say. It's down to efficiency really.

"The reason is basic energy efficiency. When your appliance takes in water it will always be cold even if from the DHW pipes, so by the time the hot water finally gets to your appliance it will have enough/majority of the water it needs so in the case of combis it has fired up for nothing and the cold water stood in your pipes will be replaced by hot just for it to sit there and lose heat."

PS Dishwashers work better on cold fill because they rinse better (hot water initial rinse congeals stuff like egg and makes it harder to shift).

PPS Ebac's track record in business is pants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebac#:~:t ... 20machines.

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but is frequently used when it agrees with your PoV... Here's a different view about Hot Fill and its advantages/disadvantages:


Why a Hot & Cold Fill Washing Machine Can Always Save You Money.
Jeff Howell
Home and Building Expert

In recent years hot-fill washing machines have been hard to find. Or impossible, if it’s a British-built machine that you’d prefer.

Cold-fill washing machines have been the only ones available, which means that you have to use electricity to heat the water from cold – even if your home already has a tank of hot water sitting waiting in the airing cupboard, or a gas-fired combi boiler sitting in the same utility room as the machine.

Various bits of marketing-speak have been used to explain this. Such as saying that hot-fill washing machines are less reliable, because the rubber hose seals fail quicker. Or that hot-fill machines don’t really save money anyway, because most of the water entering has been sitting in a cold pipe run. None of this is correct.

Some salesmen have even told customers that cold-only washing machines are more “eco-friendly”, or even that there are UK or EU regulations banning the use of hot-fill machines. All nonsense.

There is no law or rule that requires new washing machines to be cold-fill only. Such machines are made purely to save on the manufacturers’ costs. They save by not having to fit a hot-water valve, a hot-fill hose, the wiring and electronics that tell the machine when to open the hot valve, and the internal hose leading from the hot valve to the soap dispenser.

These short cuts might save money for the manufacturers, but they are costing money to householders.

The fact is that heating water by electricity costs three to four times more than using gas or oil (depending on your tariffs). And if you don’t have oil or mains gas, and use Economy 7 (“off peak”) electricity to heat your hot-water cylinder overnight, there is still a three to four fold saving over using the much more expensive day-rate electricity.

Homes with solar hot water panels are even more disadvantaged, as their day-time hot water is effectively free (if you discount the installation costs), and it must be galling for those owners to have to pay for electricity to heat water in their washing machines.

Some industry sources try to argue that hot-fill washing machines do not really save money, because most machines are sited too far from the hot-water source. Their reasoning is that when the hot valve opens, the first water that flows in is cold, because it has been sitting in an exposed pipe run. And then, after the machine has filled, the hot water left in that pipe run will cool down, and therefore be “wasted”.

This argument doesn’t really stack up. Let’s take the case of a washing machine that uses 20 litres for the initial hot wash (the subsequent rinse cycles will all use cold water). If your washing machine is ten metres away from the hot-water cylinder, then the volume of standing water in the feed-pipe is only 1.3 litres for a 15mm copper pipe, or 2.8 litres for a 22mm pipe (the figures for plastic pipes are even lower, as they have smaller internal diameters). By far the greatest amount of water entering the machine will be pre-heated hot water from your cylinder. Even with a combi boiler (where a boiler-full of cold water might have to run off before the hot water flows through) there will still be a saving.

As for the idea that, once the hot valve shuts off, the hot water in the feed pipe is "wasted", this discounts the fact that it will be warming the air in the house (in the winter) just like a radiator. Your room thermostat will detect this contribution, and shut the boiler down to accommodate it.

'Hot Fill' has been happily adopted by manufacturers because it saves them money, pure and simple. If it disadvantages the consumer, just invent spurious reasons why it's a Good Thing and people will swallow it, hook, line and sinker.

[Count Steer]

I got the quote about cold fill off the Screwfix discussion boards not Wikipedia. (Makes sense to me).

PS A few manufacturers still have hot fill option machines.

[ZRX61]

Focii weren't made here either They switched that (Halewood) plant over to making Jags IIRC. Spain and Germany for Focii, then some in Belgium too I think. I've had three "Focus" cars, one Spanish Ford and two Belgian Volvos.

I had one.. bought it with 10k miles on it. Fuel gauge stopped working and (I shit you not) the dealer replaced the entire system from the gas cap to the injectors...
Then when it was there one day I asked the gal in the service dept to run the VIN (having been told "no problem's, always serviced here" during the sale). Turns out it was on it's 4th transmission, the first having STB at only 57 miles & the 3rd one just before we bought it...
Ford Corporate ended up involved in the subsequent shitfest which saw them buying back the car & at the end we were only out of pocket for the gas we'd put in it.

No idea where it was made.

[Mr Moofo]

When our current washing machine eventually gives up the ghost it will be replaced with an Ebac, 100% made in the UK and is repairable, recyclable and reusable. It even allows 'hot fill', something that has been eliminated on all other machines on the grounds of cost saving.

That's what Ebac say. It's down to efficiency really.

"The reason is basic energy efficiency. When your appliance takes in water it will always be cold even if from the DHW pipes, so by the time the hot water finally gets to your appliance it will have enough/majority of the water it needs so in the case of combis it has fired up for nothing and the cold water stood in your pipes will be replaced by hot just for it to sit there and lose heat."

PS Dishwashers work better on cold fill because they rinse better (hot water initial rinse congeals stuff like egg and makes it harder to shift).

PPS Ebac's track record in business is pants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebac#:~:t ... 20machines.

I have an Ebac dehumidifier. Their customer service, not the product, is shocking. And their customer support is worse

[Mr. Dazzle]

I have an Ebac dehumidifier. Their customer service, not the product, is shocking.

That's the preferred way around for an electric appliance TBF.

[Dodgy69]

Didn't realise you could still buy British, well, eggs and milk maybe. We might assemble a few things.

[Mr. Dazzle]

Tailored suits

[Count Steer]

I realised I've got a British vacuum cleaner, it's got a Union Jack on! It's like a big 'Henry'. Got it from a 'janitorial supplies' company in Sheffield - Killis ~20 years ago. It's a 'Mercedes' (They still stock the Mercedes brand stuff but current ones are made in Germany).

It's v well made and v powerful.

[Mr Moofo]

Didn't realise you could still buy British, well, eggs and milk maybe. We might assemble a few things.

A little bit like Swiss watches and German cars, then.

[Count Steer]

Yeah I thought the "cold water intake" thing was an efficiency thing too, but I could be imagining that.

It probably depends to an extent on what sort of system it's connected to. I've got a combi so there's not cold or hot water storage tanks (so hot and cold are mains pressure too . Because we're on a water meter and being a bit 'eco' ie I don't like chucking drinking water down the drain, I collect the cold water that comes through before the hot when running a bath, having a shower etc and chuck it in a water butt through the summer. The amount each time depends on the distance from the boiler but it's usually a gallon+. I could set the boiler to maintain a small reserve of hot water but water is cheaper than gas.

If I'm eg just having a shave in the shower room, which is as far from the boiler as poss in this house, I use a kettle in the bedroom next door to heat the water. I thought about putting an electric water heater in the shower room but it's a faff.

If you have an already inefficient system that involves maintaining a considerable mass of water at temperature ie a 1930-1950s hot water tank then sticking a dual fill machine on it might make sense but, tbh, it's little more than making better use of an inefficient system.

Somewhere in this thread the argument is made that hot water pipes reduce your central heating bill Mine are lagged to within an inch of their lives and, for the most part, run through the loft. It's also not going to make h'aporth of difference in summer in any situation.

I think it's all what I call 'post hoc rationalisation' - we used to have dual fill, so I want dual fill (or we sell dual fill), let's find some logic that supports it.

Simpler also generally means more reliable...possibly.

[Mr. Dazzle]

I can imagine there are some situations where a dual fill machine would be more efficient, but I can imagine loads where they're not too. It'd definitely be more expensive for me to have one, 'cause I'd need to pay to rip the walls open and fit hot water lines

I suspect the answer is a lot more fundamental though. Washing Machines used to be a non-trivial purchase, you can get 'em for £99 now.

I don't completely disagree with the notion that all manufacturers are on a constant cost reduction exercise. It'd be poor business to not be doing that. The bit which always makes me laugh though is the idea they're doing it to just screw us. Manufacturers make what we buy, plain and simple.

[Count Steer]

I can imagine there are some situations where a dual fill machine would be more efficient, but I can imagine loads where they're not too. It'd definitely be more expensive for me to have one, 'cause I'd need to pay to rip the walls open and fit hot water lines

I suspect the answer is a lot more fundamental though. Washing Machines used to be a non-trivial purchase, you can get 'em for £99 now.

I don't completely disagree with the notion that all manufacturers are on a constant cost reduction exercise. It'd be poor business to not be doing that. The bit which always makes me laugh though is the idea they're doing it to just screw us. Manufacturers make what we buy, plain and simple.

I thought this was a reasonable summary.

https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/buy ... te-of-time

(It also made me smile when you start googling about the topic nearly all the top results plugging dual fill are from....Ebac ).

[Buckaroo]

I can imagine there are some situations where a dual fill machine would be more efficient, but I can imagine loads where they're not too. It'd definitely be more expensive for me to have one, 'cause I'd need to pay to rip the walls open and fit hot water lines

I suspect the answer is a lot more fundamental though. Washing Machines used to be a non-trivial purchase, you can get 'em for £99 now.

I don't completely disagree with the notion that all manufacturers are on a constant cost reduction exercise. It'd be poor business to not be doing that. The bit which always makes me laugh though is the idea they're doing it to just screw us. Manufacturers make what we buy, plain and simple.

To add, if I may, good businesses only do what the customer is prepared to pay for, bar what's required by legislation.

There's an old story, albeit true, that GM had employees who would tidy up the insides of the various plastic moulded parts. They surveyed the customer base and asked if they cared if the part they couldn't see was a little rough. Answer of course was no. They redeployed these employees to value added tasks.

[mangocrazy]

I thought this was a reasonable summary.
https://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/buy ... te-of-time

It's interesting (and quite amusing) to note that what is being deprecated in that summary is what most people are doing time after time on a daily basis, but it's only the subject of ridicule when it's a 'hot fill' washing machine doing it. If you have a 'conventional' DHW system with a copper or stainless steel cylinder every time you run the hot water tap you are pulling hot water through pipework to the tap where you are standing. This pipe run may be several metres in length if (for instance) the kitchen tap is downstairs at the back of the house and the cylinder is upstairs in the bathroom. The difference is that when a hot fill washing machine does this, it will be pulling several litres of water into the machine. When it's a human doing it, just to rinse out a cup or some such, far less water is pulled but it's an action that in many houses will occur quite often per day. In the piece I posted earlier this appears to have been conveniently overlooked:

Let’s take the case of a washing machine that uses 20 litres for the initial hot wash (the subsequent rinse cycles will all use cold water). If your washing machine is ten metres away from the hot-water cylinder, then the volume of standing water in the feed-pipe is only 1.3 litres for a 15mm copper pipe, or 2.8 litres for a 22mm pipe (the figures for plastic pipes are even lower, as they have smaller internal diameters). By far the greatest amount of water entering the machine will be pre-heated hot water from your cylinder. Even with a combi boiler (where a boiler-full of cold water might have to run off before the hot water flows through) there will still be a saving.

A few years back, we needed to replace our old and unreliable central heating gas boiler, and the installer suggested we go for a combi boiler. The combi circuit would not replace the DHW cylinder, but its sole purpose would be to serve the kitchen tap, which was scarcely a metre away from where the new boiler was to be positioned. As a result we now have virtually instantaneous hot water at the kitchen tap. As fortune would have it, the washing machine is situated directly below the central heating boiler so in the event of us buying a dual fill washing machine all I'd need to do would be to tee off the pipe from boiler to tap and create a hot fill supply. This would mean virtually instantaneous hot water to the washing machine, and result in a clear saving every time we used the washing machine (water heated by a gas boiler is approx. 4 times cheaper than that heated by electricity).

(It also made me smile when you start googling about the topic nearly all the top results plugging dual fill are from....Ebac ).

If you're one of the very few manufacturers producing dual fill machines, would you not be plugging it at every opportunity? Seems like a no-brainer to me.