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Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:03 pm
by ZRX61
Balls of feet here, can't remember ever riding another way... & that includes bikes with rearsets.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:25 pm
by Noggin
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:43 pm
by Horse
So you must have your knees bent even more when up on the footrests? So you should be able to slightly raise yourself off the seat, e.g. when riding over speedbumps.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:55 pm
by Noggin
Horse wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:43 pm
So you must have your knees bent even more when up on the footrests? So you should be able to slightly raise yourself off the seat, e.g. when riding over speedbumps.
Just a smidge!!! LOL But only on the Monster!
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:06 pm
by Noggin
Thinking about it, if I try and stand too much, I can't reach the throttle cos of lack of right arm mobility!! And I doubt, at the moment, I could stand up to straight legged from that much 'bent' knee!
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:19 pm
by Horse
Noggin wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:06 pm
Thinking about it, if I try and stand too much, I can't reach the throttle cos of lack of right arm mobility!! And I doubt, at the moment, I could stand up to straight legged from that much 'bent' knee!
Yup, like I said, the RT riding position is more towards ADV than sports
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm
by Hot_Air
Trinity765 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:39 am
20 in 2nd, 30 in 3rd, 40 in 4th etc
That’s not an IAM Roadsmart rule — no such IAM rule exists.
It might have been your Observer’s rule of thumb, but that’s the downside of amateur Observers as opposed to professional Instructors.
Those speed-to-gear ratios are meaningless. It depends on the circumstances, your bike, etc.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:40 pm
by Horse
Hot_Air wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm
that’s the downside of amateur Observers as opposed to professional Instructors.
A trainee asked me "what qualifications do you have to do this?"
Apparently, "people pay me" wasn't the reply they anticipated
But the sad fact - but, in some ways, a benefit - is that there's no mandatory qualifications needed for post-test training. Not even a full bike licence ...
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:57 am
by Trinity765
Hot_Air wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm
Trinity765 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:39 am
20 in 2nd, 30 in 3rd, 40 in 4th etc
That’s not an IAM Roadsmart rule — no such IAM rule exists.
It might have been your Observer’s rule of thumb, but that’s the downside of amateur Observers as opposed to professional Instructors.
Those speed-to-gear ratios are meaningless. It depends on the circumstances, your bike, etc.
It was the chief observer (not sure of his actual title, but the most qualified in my branch) on my pre-test that said that and I was on a CB10000R at the time so it seemed ridiculous, but I did it anyway. I've had advanced training with many professionals outside of the IAM, once a year at least to make sure I'm not getting sloppy.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:29 am
by Supermofo
Trinity765 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:57 am
Hot_Air wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm
Trinity765 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:39 am
20 in 2nd, 30 in 3rd, 40 in 4th etc
That’s not an IAM Roadsmart rule — no such IAM rule exists.
It might have been your Observer’s rule of thumb, but that’s the downside of amateur Observers as opposed to professional Instructors.
Those speed-to-gear ratios are meaningless. It depends on the circumstances, your bike, etc.
It was the chief observer (not sure of his actual title, but the most qualified in my branch) on my pre-test that said that and I was on a CB10000R at the time so it seemed ridiculous, but I did it anyway. I've had advanced training with many professionals outside of the IAM, once a year at least to make sure I'm not getting sloppy.
Thing is that's so bike dependant. On the GSXS I could do all those speeds in 1st or 4th with no issue. On my Firestorm it was a pig below 40 mph with esp 20, 30, 40 all falling between gears and getting it even slightly out meant it'd chug like a muddafudda. Doing 40 in 4th on my old SMC would probably have broken it! Suggesting one size fits all gearing suggests he was a bit inflexible which would put me off.
Reminds me of an article MCN did years ago where they got police riders on road and track talking about their riding and best practice. For the road section the assessment was that they were all pretty bloody damn good as expected. On the track part they had national/international bike racers I seem to recall assessing them. The overriding feedback was that the police riders were all riding a certain way (not surprising) which wasn't best on track mainly to do with body position and the impact of that on the bike. Most of the coppers listened to the feedback and tried to adapt but one pretty much refused to believe that their way wasn't the best way even when the benefits were explained. Not sure that's healthy.
I think that's what's put me off IAM type stuff, it's all a bit cult like by the book. I'm all for improving your riding and taking advice but the ridged by the book riding can be blinkered at times IMO from what I've heard/seen. I could be wrong.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:36 am
by Trinity765
Supermofo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:29 am
Trinity765 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:57 am
Hot_Air wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:19 pm
That’s not an IAM Roadsmart rule — no such IAM rule exists.
It might have been your Observer’s rule of thumb, but that’s the downside of amateur Observers as opposed to professional Instructors.
Those speed-to-gear ratios are meaningless. It depends on the circumstances, your bike, etc.
It was the chief observer (not sure of his actual title, but the most qualified in my branch) on my pre-test that said that and I was on a CB10000R at the time so it seemed ridiculous, but I did it anyway. I've had advanced training with many professionals outside of the IAM, once a year at least to make sure I'm not getting sloppy.
Thing is that's so bike dependant. On the GSXS I could do all those speeds in 1st or 4th with no issue. On my Firestorm it was a pig below 40 mph with esp 20, 30, 40 all falling between gears and getting it even slightly out meant it'd chug like a muddafudda. Doing 40 in 4th on my old SMC would probably have broken it! Suggesting one size fits all gearing suggests he was a bit inflexible which would put me off.
Reminds me of an article MCN did years ago where they got police riders on road and track talking about their riding and best practice. For the road section the assessment was that they were all pretty bloody damn good as expected. On the track part they had national/international bike racers I seem to recall assessing them. The overriding feedback was that the police riders were all riding a certain way (not surprising) which wasn't best on track mainly to do with body position and the impact of that on the bike. Most of the coppers listened to the feedback and tried to adapt but one pretty much refused to believe that their way wasn't the best way even when the benefits were explained. Not sure that's healthy.
I think that's what's put me off IAM type stuff, it's all a bit cult like by the book. I'm all for improving your riding and taking advice but the ridged by the book riding can be blinkered at times IMO from what I've heard/seen. I could be wrong.
I agree. This was to do with riding economically and had nothing to do with riding safely or having optimal control by being in the right gear at the right time to get out of trouble.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:11 am
by mangocrazy
I wonder if there is anyone on this forum who has ever bought a bike with the intention of riding 'economically' as the main reason for purchase? The '2nd gear in a 20 limit, 3rd in a 30 and 4th in a 40' thing sounds like a direct lift from learner driver car training and totally inapplicable to motorbikes.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:20 am
by Horse
mangocrazy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:11 amThe '2nd gear in a 20 limit, 3rd in a 30 and 4th in a 40' thing sounds like a direct lift from learner driver car training and totally inapplicable to motorbikes.
If it means that the motor isn't running effectively and efficiently, it will adversely affect fuel consumption.
Apart from small scoots, bikes are rarely an economical form of transport once you factor in gear, tyres, servicing, etc.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:25 am
by Yorick
Supermofo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:29 am
Reminds me of an article MCN did years ago where they got police riders on road and track talking about their riding and best practice. For the road section the assessment was that they were all pretty bloody damn good as expected. On the track part they had national/international bike racers I seem to recall assessing them. The overriding feedback was that the police riders were all riding a certain way (not surprising) which wasn't best on track mainly to do with body position and the impact of that on the bike. Most of the coppers listened to the feedback and tried to adapt but one pretty much refused to believe that their way wasn't the best way even when the benefits were explained. Not sure that's healthy.
About 10 years ago I was assigned 2 top cop riders to help and evaluate at Donington.
They were so stubborn and insisted that they knew best. Even other instructors tried, but no.
So in next session I sat alongside them in holding bay. Let them go ahead and passed them down Hollywood at probably double their speed. My vids show me at 140 there.
I lapped them within 3 laps.
Gave them a long knowing smile afterwards ;(
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:47 am
by Horse
We had a copper take the MSF advanced' course.
One exercise included deliberately locking the rear wheel. He just couldn't do it - actually said that years of police training wouldn't let his brain do it.
But, for context, coppers trained to be aren't all-rounders. Their training covers road riding, possibly a little bit of loose surface, that's it.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:48 am
by Trinity765
Yorick wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:25 am
Supermofo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:29 am
Reminds me of an article MCN did years ago where they got police riders on road and track talking about their riding and best practice. For the road section the assessment was that they were all pretty bloody damn good as expected. On the track part they had national/international bike racers I seem to recall assessing them. The overriding feedback was that the police riders were all riding a certain way (not surprising) which wasn't best on track mainly to do with body position and the impact of that on the bike. Most of the coppers listened to the feedback and tried to adapt but one pretty much refused to believe that their way wasn't the best way even when the benefits were explained. Not sure that's healthy.
About 10 years ago I was assigned 2 top cop riders to help and evaluate at Donington.
They were so stubborn and insisted that they knew best. Even other instructors tried, but no.
So in next session I sat alongside them in holding bay. Let them go ahead and passed them down Hollywood at probably double their speed. My vids show me at 140 there.
I lapped them within 3 laps.
Gave them a long knowing smile afterwards ;(
A police response rider in a social setting told me that he did not agree that they are not allowed to change their body position.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:29 pm
by Yorick
Trinity765 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:48 am
Yorick wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:25 am
Supermofo wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:29 am
Reminds me of an article MCN did years ago where they got police riders on road and track talking about their riding and best practice. For the road section the assessment was that they were all pretty bloody damn good as expected. On the track part they had national/international bike racers I seem to recall assessing them. The overriding feedback was that the police riders were all riding a certain way (not surprising) which wasn't best on track mainly to do with body position and the impact of that on the bike. Most of the coppers listened to the feedback and tried to adapt but one pretty much refused to believe that their way wasn't the best way even when the benefits were explained. Not sure that's healthy.
About 10 years ago I was assigned 2 top cop riders to help and evaluate at Donington.
They were so stubborn and insisted that they knew best. Even other instructors tried, but no.
So in next session I sat alongside them in holding bay. Let them go ahead and passed them down Hollywood at probably double their speed. My vids show me at 140 there.
I lapped them within 3 laps.
Gave them a long knowing smile afterwards ;(
A police response rider in a social setting told me that he did not agree that they are not allowed to change their body position.
These 2 sat bolt upright all day, while I was hanging off like loon
- TRC.jpg (398.27 KiB) Viewed 545 times
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:00 pm
by Dickyboy
2nd gear in a 20 limit, 3rd in a 30 and 4th in a 40
I use it when the speedo sensor of the guzzi breaks yet again*
*and have learnt the corresponding required revs
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:35 pm
by The Spin Doctor
Trinity765 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:57 am
It was the chief observer (not sure of his actual title, but the most qualified in my branch) on my pre-test that said that and I was on a CB10000R at the time so it seemed ridiculous, but I did it anyway. I've had advanced training with many professionals outside of the IAM, once a year at least to make sure I'm not getting sloppy.
I got picked up for 'too high a gear' on a BikeSafe.
"It's a 600 so you should be in 2nd and 3rd on these [fairly twisty B] roads."
I pointed out that it wasn't a SPORTS 600, but the XJ6 Divvie which has lowered gearing plus a flattened torque curve which is nearly level from 3k to 9 or so. 1st runs out at 45 (which means it's surprisingly zippy off the line) whilst it tops out at 118mph (GPS) well into the red in top.
So in fact at 50-odd mph, it's quite happy in 4th.
I explained all that but he wasn't convinced, so I did what he wanted. "There's, that's much better isn't it?" he told me with a beaming smile.
Not really - instead of riding around at about 5-6k in a perfect place for the motor for the motor to gather speed or roll off, I ended up riding at about 9k where there's no real acceleration left.
As I think I mentioned to you - keeping the rev counter in about the middle third is a reasonable rule of thumb for most bikes with a decent spread of power... towards the lower end when I'm in no rush, towards the top end when I'm feeling more enthusiastic...
By the way, did you ask him which gear you should be in at 100 mph on a German Autobahn? I would have been tempted.
Re: Foot Position on Pegs
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:37 pm
by The Spin Doctor
mangocrazy wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:11 am
I wonder if there is anyone on this forum who has ever bought a bike with the intention of riding 'economically' as the main reason for purchase?
Yep.
Plenty of them.
