revtothelimit - motorbike forum

I think it was John McGuinness who once said, when DJ had finished the senior, his pegs were bent from the weight he was putting on them,

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:06 am I went back to my source - the IAM, Full Control document and what I was thinking of is the "Anchored Push". Now I've re-read it, it's not really about weight on the pegs. It suggests anchoring yourself (consciously feeling) the outside peg while pushing on the opposite bar. I tried it for five minutes once, gave up and rode how I normally ride.

That name rang a bell. It was originally a Norwegian publication (which they kindly also published in English) from 2013.

Just had a quick peek, interesting that it includes the precession stuff. See previous here.


There's something else in there which is (perhaps as a result of that translation) a bit confusing:

You keep the weight on the outer peg. This gives the bike stability because your weight is fed into the bike low down – and you will not disturb the bike while it is working.

Short of peeing into the petrol tank or sitting in the topbox, you can't put your weight "into" the bike. Also, you have weight, so does the bike. Scientists are probably yelling 'mass!' right now. All you can do is alter where your centre of mass is. Stand up, it rises, hang off, it moves to one side.

One last thing: it suggests keeping you head level. I do too, have done for years. Why? Well, they don't give any reasons, but my understanding is that:

- when cornering, the balance mechanism in your ears, seat of the pants, etc, will feel 'down' as in-line with the leant over bike

- if, mid-bend, you have to make decision, the information you have might be misleading

- by keep your head level, you have
- a different 'feel' from your balance mechanism
- your eyes are able to scan horizontally, so more easily

But, TBH, I've not seen anything researched about either of those.

Horse wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:52 am

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:06 am I went back to my source - the IAM, Full Control document and what I was thinking of is the "Anchored Push". Now I've re-read it, it's not really about weight on the pegs. It suggests anchoring yourself (consciously feeling) the outside peg while pushing on the opposite bar. I tried it for five minutes once, gave up and rode how I normally ride.

Keith Code called it 'Power Steering'


Now, consider how pushing the inside bar while pressing down on the outside footrest works with the idea of it's possible to steer by 'weighting the footrests'?

Then add in hanging off to one side as a cornering style. How is that achieved?

A rough split of methods might be:

As part of a smooth movement for 'kiss the mirror' style, combining upper body movement and pressing the bar, press on the outside footrest.

For hanging off, to slide your backside sideways, you probably need to, at that moment, press down on both rests to lift your weight. I'm not a reliable source for this sort of riding. However, my understanding is that there needs to be slight separation in time between hanging off, then steering in.

If riding no hands, then you can only move your upper body or, if you raise your weight, press on a footrest.

These are things to consciously try, in appropriate circumstances, making sure that you identify what action actually causes the reaction.

For what is called "Kiss the mirror" I've always thought of as "elbow, knee". Move my elbow towards my knee. I've done mainly to A. keep my arms relaxed and B. because it puts my upper body in a better position. I never needed it as much in left hand turns, more right which I've had more difficulty with. To help with my right hand bends I've had to focus on getting into the correct road position earlier, relax, look through the bend and give it more gas to hold the position.

I've never moved my bum on the seat. It would be a big new habit to learn but if I was convinced that it would make a difference, I would learn. I understand why track racers do it - to keep the bike as upright as possible, but on the road, upper body movement is enough.

A police biker once said to me that the only thing he disagreed with was that they weren't allowed to move their body. Seeing as they can be quite quick ( ) how important is it really?

Dodgy knees wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:33 am That guy riding no handed. He must be leaning a tad to get bike to turn. To turn, does the bike auto CS momentarily and then auto correct to allow the bike to find it's balance and complete the turn. ??

Yes. Probably.

TBH, it's not something I've ever really tried.

One thing to note is that he mentions both 'downhill' and IIRC 'cruise control'. So, possibly, both in the video? If you don't have that drive/momentum, the bike will slow and feel less stable.

It's possibly a case of encouraging the bike natural self-steering effect. Usually as it leans slightly, the front wheel will turn 'in', so possibly adding upper body 'in' just at that point, overcoming the bike turning back the other side? I'm guessing!

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:56 am

keep my arms relaxed and B. because it puts my upper body in a better position. I never needed it as much in left hand turns, more right which I've had more difficulty with. To help with my right hand bends I've had to focus on getting into the correct road position earlier, relax, look through the bend and give it more gas to hold the position.

Keeping relaxed is vital. A death grip on the bars, rigid arms, fixed shoulders, all bad for the bike. Often, the rider is the worst component.

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:56 am
A police biker once said to me that the only thing he disagreed with was that they weren't allowed to move their body. Seeing as they can be quite quick ( ) how important is it really?

I rode a succession of BMW RTs from 1988 to recently. So hanging off like a gibbon (as someone eloquently phrased it) was not part of my bike control repertoire.

Although I did hear a copper ask a journalist about his moving around off the seat "Do you have a cucumber up your backside?" Copper, on an old BMW R800RT (98mph flat out on the calibrated speedo) had no problems keeping up.

Something I heard once, can't remember where but it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:02 am Something I heard once, can't remember where but it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Certainly if it wants to keep the bike in a straight line, all you can do is hinder it!

[/quote]

Fair enough

Biggest, most consistent (across many riders) problems that I've seen are:

- a very brief 'wiggle' of the bars; the bike just shimmies, the rider doesn't have a chance to feel what's happening

- the rider doesn't believe it will work, so you see combinations of rigid arms leaning the opposite way, all sorts

- there was a third but, while one finger typing, I've forgotten...

- actually, I've thought of the fourth .... closing the throttle
[/quote]

Overreacting to the bike leaning was one I found, trying to get it back upright or throwing their body the other way.

Oh yes, actually fighting it, sometimes leaning their upper body one side and believing that they are counter-steering - but are actually steering 'in'.

If you're "weighting" the pegs your bum should only be gracing the seat with its presence, that way you are driving your weight through the outside peg helping with grip. If you don't believe me try it on a mountain bike which will exaggerate the principle as your mass is much more of an influence on the bike, you can experiment with less financial and physical penalties.

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:56 am
I've never moved my bum on the seat. It would be a big new habit to learn but if I was convinced that it would make a difference, I would learn. I understand why track racers do it - to keep the bike as upright as possible, but on the road, upper body movement is enough.

It's worth trying... it's something I cover on the second day of my Performance courses... essentially you end up moving the combined Centre of Mass sideways, which means it's no longer over the line connecting the two contact patches as it would be if the bike is upright and travelling straight. It actually sets up the bike for hands-off steering round a bend. I found it made riding my old FZ750 a lot nicer-feeling on wet roads.

A police biker once said to me that the only thing he disagreed with was that they weren't allowed to move their body. Seeing as they can be quite quick ( ) how important is it really?

I followed a BikeSafe copper once... he used a lot of upper body movement but in the opposite direction - counterweighting. By keeping the upper body upright, you reduce the mass you need to move from one lean angle to the other, which means less force at the bars or quicker rates of roll (and more rapid changes of direction) for the same input.

Understanding the difference between leaning IN and leaning OUT is really useful.

Horse wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:39 am Just had a quick peek, interesting that it includes the precession stuff. See previous here.
...
You keep the weight on the outer peg. This gives the bike stability because your weight is fed into the bike low down – and you will not disturb the bike while it is working.

I think we have covered precession

Sometimes it does help to have a grasp of physics... I covered this 'standing up lowers the CoG' nonsense endless times on VD, TRC, on my old Wordpress blog and on FB more recently.

One last thing: it suggests keeping you head level. I do too, have done for years. Why? Well, they don't give any reasons, but my understanding is that:

- when cornering, the balance mechanism in your ears, seat of the pants, etc, will feel 'down' as in-line with the leant over bike

- if, mid-bend, you have to make decision, the information you have might be misleading

- by keep your head level, you have
- a different 'feel' from your balance mechanism
- your eyes are able to scan horizontally, so more easily

But, TBH, I've not seen anything researched about either of those.

Watching racers they all have different techniques... Mick Grant used to sit absolutely motionless on the bike like he had a rod up his spine, so his head leaned at the same angle as the bike. I think it was a Japanese rider who used to tilt his head somewhat the wrong way. But most just seem to keep the head relatively level with the horizon. I suspect it's just one less visual complication.

Horse wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:01 am One thing to note is that he mentions both 'downhill' and IIRC 'cruise control'. So, possibly, both in the video? If you don't have that drive/momentum, the bike will slow and feel less stable.

I did a similar hands-off demo for Ian Mutch one afternoon - that was down a long hill. I just stuck the bike in top minimising engine braking. I was actually having to use the rear brake to keep the speed steady.

Overreacting to the bike leaning was one I found, trying to get it back upright or throwing their body the other way.

I'd just done my counter-steering talk as part of the Ride Skills day at Brands, and came out to find an adoring audience standing around a Brands instructor as he explained how he didn't ever counter-steer. He demonstrated that he 'pulled the bike down' into corners by throwing himself off the side.

He demo'd on the paddock stands.

What no-one noticed was that as he moved his body mass to the left, the bike's initial movement was to the RIGHT.

It was only when he'd upset the balance by hanging off that the bike toppled left off the stands... action and REaction.

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:02 am Something I heard once, can't remember where but it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Errr... well, if it did, there's not much point having handlebars.

You push to initiate the roll... how hard you push determines how fast the bike rolls to your chosen lean angle. How fast you arrive at your chosen lean angle determines how fast you change direction.

Most riders are very over-cautious when it comes to steering inputs. So the bike takes ages to change direction. And that means you actually need more lean angle mid-corner to get through it.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:58 pm

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:02 am Something I heard ... it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Errr... well, if it did, there's not much point having handlebars.

I read Trinity's comment as "the front wheel will self-centre to keep the bike travelling in a straight line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it", not to do with steering.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:58 pm

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:02 am Something I heard once, can't remember where but it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Errr... well, if it did, there's not much point having handlebars.

The same article said that the only reason the handlebars are there is for somewhere to hang the controls. I wish I could remember where I read/watched it but seeing as I can't even remember if I read it or watched it, there's little hope of that. However, I believe it to be true and it has helped.

While out with an advanced instructor he noticed that when going into a bend with a very uneven surface I tensed up on the bars and he picked me up on it. The next day I read an article about forming new habits. The first step is to recognise when the new habit needs to kick in - so for me, as soon as I notice the road surface is uneven. Breaking the problem down into one very brief moment - the second I notice a bump and then thinking RELAX has worked. By repetition, it's now a habit.

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:45 pm
I followed a BikeSafe copper once... he used a lot of upper body movement but in the opposite direction - counterweighting.

I went into a fast corner for the first time with someone who rode like this and I nearly fell off myself in surprise As I didn't know him well I wasn't going to ask him about it but as luck would have it, someone else did over dinner. His reply was "I don't know why I do it, but it works". No it doesn't - you just get thinner chicken strips.

By keeping the upper body upright, you reduce the mass you need to move from one lean angle to the other, which means less force at the bars or quicker rates of roll (and more rapid changes of direction) for the same input.

Understanding the difference between leaning IN and leaning OUT is really useful.

For clarity - you mean like a speedway riding? For a left turn, lower the bike to the left but keeping the body upright? That's fine for slow corners or slaloming around drain covers but not for fast corners as the idea is to keep the bike as upright as possible. In lowering the bike down you're using more of the tyre than you need too and therefore you're going to get to the edge of it sooner, no?

Trinity765 wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:34 am

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:58 pm

Trinity765 wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:02 am Something I heard once, can't remember where but it's stuck with me is that the front wheel will find its line on its own and there's nothing you can do to help it.

Errr... well, if it did, there's not much point having handlebars.

The same article said that the only reason the handlebars are there is for somewhere to hang the controls.

Ah, not just self-centring!

Trinity765 wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:34 am

The Spin Doctor wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:45 pm
I followed a BikeSafe copper once... he used a lot of upper body movement but in the opposite direction - counterweighting.

I went into a fast corner for the first time with someone who rode like this and I nearly fell off myself in surprise

By keeping the upper body upright, you reduce the mass you need to move from one lean angle to the other, which means less force at the bars or quicker rates of roll (and more rapid changes of direction) for the same input.

Understanding the difference between leaning IN and leaning OUT is really useful.

For clarity - you mean like a speedway riding? For a left turn, lower the bike to the left but keeping the body upright? That's fine for slow corners or slaloming around drain covers but not for fast corners as the idea is to keep the bike as upright as possible. In lowering the bike down you're using more of the tyre than you need too and therefore you're going to get to the edge of it sooner, no?

Lean with
../
/

Lean in
...._/
/

Lean out / counterweighting
!
/

There can be advantages to keeping your body upright, such as maintaining a better view (and being seen too), also potentially separating the bikes movement from yours. That makes swerving quicker. Also on uneven / loose surfaces the bike can move about and self-correct.

I've always thought of counterweighting as a technique for slow speed turns - see some of the motorman videos Horse refers to. As for the bars being something to hang the controls on - I think it may have been Geoff Duke who originally said that. Other than the famouse pic of the slide at Imola he certainly looked like it.