Superstitions can kill you

[Skub]

Other than to check if it works at MOT time,I don't think I've used the horn on any of my bikes in the last 20 years!

Mrs.Skub though,she's a proper European driver.

[Horse]

At the other end of the spectrum, I was heading off to do some CBTs for a well-known pizza company who DOMINate the industry.

Went past their truck and trailer stopped in a bus stop, just after a roundabout. All three mopeds leant over in a heap over like fallen DOMINOs ...

Takes some skill to crash three bikes in one go!

[The Spin Doctor]

I find "stop riding like a twat or i wont be signing you off" works fairly well although most rides it getting the students up to a reasonable safe speed that is the bigger problem

Years ago, I had a guy called Ian Blackwell on a course. I knew who he was as soon as he mentioned he had a bit of racing experience. He was a regular at tracks across the south of England, I think he was Bemsee champion on a TZ250, and it turned out he'd raced at the Isle of Man too.

He behaved himself until we rode back across the Marsh on the way back from his successful bike test... then he couldn't resist opening up the CG125.

Just as well he had only 11hp

[Le_Fromage_Grande]

Interesting thread, I had a fairly nasty accident 20 years ago that was without any doubt my fault, it massively changed how I ride a motorcycle on the road, I now only go as fast as I can see to stop, if that makes sense. It was a painful lesson I learned, hopefully other people will learn it without fractured vertebrae.

[The Spin Doctor]

At the other end of the spectrum, I was heading off to do some CBTs for a well-known pizza company who DOMINate the industry.

Went past their truck and trailer stopped in a bus stop, just after a roundabout. All three mopeds leant over in a heap over like fallen DOMINOs ...

Takes some skill to crash three bikes in one go!

We had to do Pizzahut riders at CSM... I was out on a training run with two other new instructors and one of the senior instructors myself, when one of their riders overtook our group on the nearside. He was supposedly under supervision and doing a CBT renewal himself.

We were told to "pull up and wait somewhere safe" whilst our instructor took off after the CBT group. It was pretty obvious their instructor was getting a serious b*llocking. We heard later that the Pizzahut rider was taken back to the school, and sent away empty handed.

[Horse]

We heard later that the Pizzahut rider was taken back to the school, and sent away hungry.

First pizza riders I did were immediately pre-CBT introduction, I think we used it as a dry run.

It was an independent company (very good pizzas too) and one of the two was the boss's son. He was 'retired' soon after when he planted the scoot into the rear of a Jag.

However, when talking to the owner, he mentioned that some delivery riders in London had been mugged. For the pizzas!

[Dodgy69]

Easier than robbin a food bank...

[Wossname]

...... came round a corner to find a farm trailer ....,., stationary, just off the road in the entrance to a lane on my L, the tractor out of sight[/i] ....... At the "critical" moment, the trailer starts reversing out into the roadway in front of me.

Ah. I thought I had described the situation fairly clearly - apparently not. To emphasize - I did not have time to do ANYTHING apart from swerve. Horn? What for? As Horse says - by the time the driver recognised what that new noise was, worked out that it might have something to do with his reversing activity, popped his foot on the brake, I'd have crashed. I didn't, because I correctly calculated very quickly that the only option was to try to evade; using the horn would have been a really silly and pointless thing to do. Yes, I could have used it before the corner, IOW before I became aware that there was an "issue" pending. Would it have had the desired effect? Horn before every bend with limited view? Possibly, but I'd rather pull the speed right back, which I did, and tuck well in to the L, before the (RH) bend, which I did. The only reason I brought this up in the first place was to illustrate the expression "unexpected things happen unexpectedly".

I take the view that using the horn is like the over-the-shoulder blind spot check. It's a complete waste of time and effort, at a time when important other things need to be attended to, if the timing means that nobody - the rider or the other driver - can change their ride/drive plan. You see riders doing it all the time - a quick flip of their head AS they make the turn, because "I have to do a shoulder check"; using the horn in my case above wouldn't have given the tractor driver any chance to change his drive before impact.

[Cousin Jack]

What worries me about the DSA Hazard Perception Test is that it is training new drivers/riders NOT to react until the hazard is developing. That seems to me to be a very foolish thing, if you spot the potential problem early enough you can often move yourself out of the hazard area, so that if it does develop it is someone else's problem.

I used to see it time and time again on the motorways, I would spot a problem building , usually near an on-ramp. It didn't 'develop' until someone crossed a line, but it seemed obvious to me that it was very likely to happen a few hundred feet back.

BTW, every time I take the DSA training test I fail - I click too early

[Horse]

I take the view that using the horn is like the over-the-shoulder blind spot check. It's a complete waste of time and effort, at a time when important other things need to be attended to, if the timing means that nobody - the rider or the other driver - can change their ride/drive plan. You see riders doing it all the time - a quick flip of their head AS they make the turn, because "I have to do a shoulder check"; using the horn in my case above wouldn't have given the tractor driver any chance to change his drive before impact.

Even though it's almost 40 years old, I still like the Kent police Riding Plans video. Yes, it's old school blue book Roadcraft 'by numbers' rote riding. But it's worth watching.

However, there are a couple of points ...

One is a late lifesaver. Leaving a roundabout, at the moment the rider is looking over his shoulder the bike is already pointing to the exit.

The other is on the approach to a blind crest. Toot! Fair enough. Then he says " ... And listen for an answering horn". Really? I think that's the only time I've ever heard that suggested. Personally, if I heard someone toot, I'd treat it as an "I'm coming through" warning, and stop.

[Horse]

[Rockburner]

[CARTOONS]

Excellent

I can't find my favourite

[slowsider]

"What can reasonably be expected to happen".

2 key words: "reasonably" and "expected". The problem is, people can use use the excuse/explanation for a crash by saying "how could I possibly have predicted that?" - and that the only way to have avoided that would be by riding everywhere at 5mph.

My anecdote: out on some small winding country roads, came round a corner to find a farm trailer loaded with silage bales, stationary, just off the road in the entrance to a lane on my L, the tractor out of sight because of the height/narrowness of the entrance to the lane. At the "critical" moment, the trailer starts reversing out into the roadway in front of me. Cue hard, fast countersteering, twice, and I had to duck below the level of the trailer's angled overhang, to avoid being wiped off.

What do I learn from this? In this instance, forget "reasonable" and "expected". Instead - "unexpected things happen unexpectedly". But I'm not sure how helpful that really is.

Take care out there....

...... came round a corner to find a farm trailer ....,., stationary, just off the road in the entrance to a lane on my L, the tractor out of sight[/i] ....... At the "critical" moment, the trailer starts reversing out into the roadway in front of me.

Ah. I thought I had described the situation fairly clearly - apparently not. To emphasize - I did not have time to do ANYTHING apart from swerve. Horn? What for? As Horse says - by the time the driver recognised what that new noise was, worked out that it might have something to do with his reversing activity, popped his foot on the brake, I'd have crashed. I didn't, because I correctly calculated very quickly that the only option was to try to evade; using the horn would have been a really silly and pointless thing to do. Yes, I could have used it before the corner, IOW before I became aware that there was an "issue" pending. Would it have had the desired effect? Horn before every bend with limited view? Possibly, but I'd rather pull the speed right back, which I did, and tuck well in to the L, before the (RH) bend, which I did. The only reason I brought this up in the first place was to illustrate the expression "unexpected things happen unexpectedly".

Where was it you were riding again? Small winding country roads? And yet a tractor is not reasonable or expected?
If you really 'pulled the speed right back', why didn't you have time to stop, leave alone sound the horn.

[The Spin Doctor]

I take the view that using the horn is like the over-the-shoulder blind spot check. It's a complete waste of time and effort, at a time when important other things need to be attended to, if the timing means that nobody - the rider or the other driver - can change their ride/drive plan. You see riders doing it all the time - a quick flip of their head AS they make the turn, because "I have to do a shoulder check"; using the horn in my case above wouldn't have given the tractor driver any chance to change his drive before impact.

If you think they're useless then the timing is bad.

The head check is supposed to be done BEFORE committing to a manoeuvre, and it's saved me a few times... like the other day when I was about to turn right to discover a Deliveroo plonker going straight on from the wrong side of the traffic island. A moment earlier when I checked the mirrors he'd been filtering on my left. I just stopped, let him pass then resumed my turn, but if I'd made the turn without the check he would have T-boned me.

Similarly, the horn is best used to 'pin' a driver or other road user. For example, someone walking fast towards me on the nearside and looking back over their left shoulder, whilst there's a traffic island in the centre of the road. What is he about to do? Almost certainly, step out in to the road. Why is he looking the wrong way? Presumably he looked in my direction a moment earlier and failed to spot my bike... or is used to traffic on the other side of the road - I've made that error abroad! In this case a quick toot as I started to brake stopped him dead, and I was able to carry on with minimum fuss.

[Horse]

If you think they're useless then the timing is bad.

The head check is supposed to be done BEFORE committing to a manoeuvre,

Even more so, you need time to look, notice, think, avoid. Time and roadspace.

[The Spin Doctor]

Where was it you were riding again? Small winding country roads? And yet a tractor is not reasonable or expected?
If you really 'pulled the speed right back', why didn't you have time to stop, leave alone sound the horn.

Unfortunately most of us push the limit on 'stop well within the distance you can see to be clear AND EXPECT TO REMAIN CLEAR' because 'Surprise Horizons' don't rate a mention on IAM / RoSPA courses when the focus is on matching speed to the moving Limit Point.

The catch is that the Surprise Horizon stays fixed and comes back towards us - and we may have to stop as we get there... assuming we spotted it and decided to do something about it.

[The Spin Doctor]

If you think they're useless then the timing is bad.

The head check is supposed to be done BEFORE committing to a manoeuvre,

Even more so, you need time to look, notice, think, avoid. Time and roadspace.

Well, I kind of alluded to that in the description of the two incidents when I said it had to be "before committing yourself".

[Horse]

'Surprise Horizons'

Sure I read a half-decent article recently

[The Spin Doctor]

videos

Interestingly, that first video uses a section of one of my Maidstone training routes.

The 'horn warning' for the vehicle emerging at the junction on the right is interesting - it's actually a horrid junction to pull out of, as you can't see either way. The pub blocks the view to the left, but the road bends round out of sight on the right too. It's not even a perfect crossroads, you have to do a bit of a zig-zag to go straight over. It's one I'm always cautious pulling out of.

[Wossname]

I take the view that using the horn is like the over-the-shoulder blind spot check. It's a complete waste of time and effort, at a time when important other things need to be attended to, if the timing means that nobody - the rider or the other driver - can change their ride/drive plan. You see riders doing it all the time - a quick flip of their head AS they make the turn, because "I have to do a shoulder check"; using the horn in my case above wouldn't have given the tractor driver any chance to change his drive before impact.

If you think they're useless then the timing is bad.

The head check is supposed to be done BEFORE committing to a manoeuvre, and it's saved me a few times... like the other day when I was about to turn right to discover a Deliveroo plonker going straight on from the wrong side of the traffic island. A moment earlier when I checked the mirrors he'd been filtering on my left. I just stopped, let him pass then resumed my turn, but if I'd made the turn without the check he would have T-boned me.

Similarly, the horn is best used to 'pin' a driver or other road user. For example, someone walking fast towards me on the nearside and looking back over their left shoulder, whilst there's a traffic island in the centre of the road. What is he about to do? Almost certainly, step out in to the road. Why is he looking the wrong way? Presumably he looked in my direction a moment earlier and failed to spot my bike... or is used to traffic on the other side of the road - I've made that error abroad! In this case a quick toot as I started to brake stopped him dead, and I was able to carry on with minimum fuss.

That's exactly the point I was making - there's no point in doing it if you can't change your plan as a result of what you've seen behind/beside you.